Anyone Else Think It Wont Happen?

[outsydthebox]

Harlon --- just read the link from your last post. Seems to be saying flame sprayed plasma coating is the coming thing. Iron liners, Alusil, Nikasil and other Nickel electroplating processes are dying out.

I read that, too. Article said, only real draw back is the cost...$3-5 per bore...not so big a deal on only 3 cylinders. And IIRC, according to an article about Fords process, It stated that "durability was in the 250K range", and "better than current offerings".....hmmm, Might just be the reason Ford doesn't want to use it. Drastically increase "engine life" = drastic reduction in future car sales.

 

[tonyspumoni]

Super interesting outsydthebox. I'll muddle that one a bit. Agreed though - Warren is a very different cat on many levels that is Bill. Bill isn't known for demanding lots of control, but I have only paid attention to his wonderful work in promoting healthcare solutions for intractable problems like Malaria, not his side investments. Warren is Mr. Value and indeed, ANY investor that plunks down their cold-hard cash is going to want control.

One of the catastrophes that could threaten or doom the Elio is if Paul can't let go of control to his investors. Let's face it - this is always the problem in investment and there are a zillion ways to slice and dice so that founders get "paid". And, in this tit for tat world, investors have just as many ways for counteracting this and gaining control. This is why the board is such a big deal. Heck, it wouldn't surprise me either if a significant rationale for Paul being so much the mugshot of Elio is that his departure in a tiff over control would threaten the model. Have patents issued and who owns those? Are they Paul's and out-licensed to Elio Motors?

Why is this such a potentially big deal? Because the investors will want their bones. If Paul says "$6800 or bust" and yet the investors think they can sell them for $9k a pop, Paul might get it in the neck. And the current investors, having ponied up cash, will want to bring secondary players in with as little dilution as they can possible get away with, e.g. going to 100 different people with $100M and asking them what they'd want for it. Heck the guy who owns the factory - forget his name, the board guy - might have some kind of weird poison pill in the lease agreement that says if I get diluted more than X, I'm out and you're out too. Find yerself yer own dang factory dammit.

 

[tonyspumoni]

...and while I might have some facts wrong here, the essential verity of what I say is beyond dispute. No one with the kind of bucks EM needs is Mother Theresa. They are sharks who want fish.

 

[harlan stephens]

Read it many times my friend.

Ford used the same exact process in 2013...
Yet not in 2014? Why?
Just not seeing anyone flocking to it. what I see as only marketing claims I fully do not trust. Prove it. On the street. Strip. Or drag over time.
Mabey the Japanese are using this?
And know all to well how once failures start to occure the industry making said products start pointing fingers..such as
The bore was not clean during assembly,
The rings were wrong. The ring gap wrong...the tune was wrong..there good at it and keep selling known bad products. Some work some dont. Its hit and miss.
But in the end the bores are skuffed. Or Plating gone. And in some cases motor fried. clearly an issue with the bore.
Not one plated bore at the drag strip...
Why? Was there all weekend?
Only so many elements in the world. One can coat an aluminum bore with. and no matter how its done its a thin coat In a high ware area.

tech that has been working are coating pistons. I love tech if it works.
I love fuel injection over jets.
Changing air fuel ratios at diffrent rpms.
Or tweeking timing with a computer that stuff rocks. Data logging what the motor does and tweeking...its great stuff.

Its simple. Tech that works I love. As do my buddys. Tech that destroys motors or could potentially kill the elio I hate. I want one.
Other less leathal junk are thottle body spacers on fi motors. And a whole slew of intake gizmos with outrageous hp gain claims. Now a turbo,or screw is different. And the things that work. Can be seen working every day all day long.
I have learned to be leary of marketing hype and untested unproven tech. And paid dearly learning the hard way.
My take is this let bmw or ford . Or somone with deep pockets work this new tech out. Elio needs to stick to the original plan. Off the shelf and tried and true.

 

[tonyspumoni]

Harlan,

I hear ya man, but Elio has made the call and IAV it is. And it sure seems like the consensus here is that there is a wide-range of views on what constitutes risk in the design phase. VW for example loves the iron block. BMW loves aluminum. Neither have engines that are clearly superior to the other. And modern motors of all stripes last waaaaaay longer without major issues than they used to. I started buying new cars in the early 80's and I've had just one - a Chevy Beretta - have a bad block or bad anything from the rings on in - no seals, no bearings, no rods, nothing. For all the others, including my two POS BMW 335d's, all problems were related to peripheral engine components, e.g. injectors, NOx, O2 and other sensors, fuel pumps, DEF systems, catalytic converters, and a couple of water pumps. Does 11:1 compression worry me a bit for 87 octane gas? Yeah, it kinda does because I can't wrap my head around how they actually can keep it from pre-igniting, but again I'm no engineer and will have to trust, or distrust those who are. I will say this, IAV is a very reputable and apparently sophisticated group - not some little-engine-that-could company with 150 employees in Garagesville, Idaho.

If you have an idea for the off-the-self motor you would have chosen, I'd love to hear that so I can learn more about what distinguishes a first rate existing powerplant from the one we are likely to get from the IAV engineering group.

 

[EZ]

question:

I am all-in with a deposit, but what exactly does that mean ?

does the actual purchase price have to be $6800. ? what if it turns out to be $25,000. ? are they in any way obligated to refund my deposit ?

is there a time expiration on my deposit ? what if in 5 years (2020) they are still not in production but have not closed/filed Bankruptcy ?

84 mpg ? is that a condition/requirement or can I demand my deposit refunded ?

CorbinMotors required :
10% deposit to secure a "#"
40% deposit for the vehicle to be built
50% final payment before it left the factory

what is the payment schedule befo

will EVERY VEHICLE PRODUCTION NUMBER be based on date of deposit or will the actual vehicles be allocated as necessary ? will there be a publicized list of names/vin # based upon production ?

what if it is decided the price is too low and the sales price MUST be increased, does the deposit GUARANTEE YOUR PURCHASE PRICE ?

Corbin Sparrow had 13 OPTIMA Batteries in EACH vehicle. Optima stopped shipping batteries when the bills were not paid on time.

 

[CompTrex]

question:

I am all-in with a deposit, but what exactly does that mean ?

does the actual purchase price have to be $6800. ? what if it turns out to be $25,000. ? are they in any way obligated to refund my deposit ?

is there a time expiration on my deposit ? what if in 5 years (2020) they are still not in production but have not closed/filed Bankruptcy ?

84 mpg ? is that a condition/requirement or can I demand my deposit refunded ?

CorbinMotors required :
10% deposit to secure a "#"
40% deposit for the vehicle to be built
50% final payment before it left the factory

what is the payment schedule befo

will EVERY VEHICLE PRODUCTION NUMBER be based on date of deposit or will the actual vehicles be allocated as necessary ? will there be a publicized list of names/vin # based upon production ?

what if it is decided the price is too low and the sales price MUST be increased, does the deposit GUARANTEE YOUR PURCHASE PRICE ?

Corbin Sparrow had 13 OPTIMA Batteries in EACH vehicle. Optima stopped shipping batteries when the bills were not paid on time.

Lots of questions in there.
Bottom line: there are NO guarantees. There are no obligations. You will NOT get your money back no matter what happens and no matter how long. No matter the final price and no matter the final MPG. You are out $1000. Now, that $1000 can be used to lower the price of the car if and when the car gets built. Other than that, nothing.

 

[Charlie G]

but what exactly does that mean ?

RESERVATION AGREEMENT

This Reservation Agreement between the person or entity identified below as you and Elio Motors, Inc., located at 2942 North 24th Street - Suite 114-700, Phoenix, AZ 85016, U.S.A., or its affiliate identified below as Elio Motors, Inc., is for your reservation of an Elio vehicle with us.

1. Reservation
   1. By entering into this Reservation Agreement you hereby confirm that you wish to reserve an Elio vehicle (prototype can be viewed on our website).
2. Nature of Agreement; Non-Binding Reservation Payment
   1. The Reservation Payment is NON-REFUNDABLE and provides you with the benefits in Section 4 below depending on the level of your payment. This Agreement does not constitute an agreement for the sale of a vehicle and does not lock in pricing, a production slot, or an estimated delivery date. You are under no obligation to purchase a vehicle from us, and we are under no obligation to supply you with a vehicle. If and when we notify you of the availability of the vehicle and you wish to proceed with the purchase, such sale and purchase will be governed by a separate and legally binding Purchase Agreement between you and us or between you and another authorized dealer (Elio). In the event a purchase is made, your Reservation Payment plus a bonus equal to 25% of the payment will be credited against the purchase price.
3. Effective Date; Reservation Process
   1. This Agreement is formed and becomes effective when we receive both your validly executed Agreement and your Reservation Payment in the amount and form stated in the Payment Instructions provided to you in connection with this Agreement. You may execute this Agreement by either: (i) hand-delivering or sending a signed Agreement to us by facsimile, email or prepaid post; or (ii) by acknowledging and accepting this Agreement online. We will be deemed to have received your Agreement on actual receipt by Elio. You may make your Reservation Payment by any means described in the Payment instructions. Once this Agreement becomes effective, you will be placed on the reservations list and will receive communications about our program.
4. Reservation Payment Amount
   1. Depending on the level of your Reservation Payment, you will be entitled to the following benefits:
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      2. A Two Hundred and Fifty Dollar Reservation Payment ($250.00) entitles you to all the benefits in Section A above, plus you will be given a priority delivery date ahead of all of the participants in Section A above.
      3. A Five Hundred dollar ($500.00) Reservation Payment entitles you to all the benefits in Sections A and B above, plus you will be given a priority delivery date ahead of all of the participants in Sections A and B above.
      4. A One Thousand Dollar ($1,000.00) Reservation Payment entitles you to all the benefits in Section A, B, and C above, plus you will be given a priority delivery date ahead of all of the participants in Sections A, B, and C above.
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   1. When the start of production of your reservation nears, we will ask you to confirm your option selections and provide full details regarding the legal purchaser of the vehicle. Elio will create an order for your vehicle containing the information provided by you, and a Purchase Agreement indicating the estimated purchase price of your vehicle, taking into account the base price of the model and any options included or that you select, plus estimates of any applicable taxes, duties, transport and delivery charges, and any other applicable fees. Elio will then submit to you the order and the Purchase Agreement for your review. If you wish to proceed and purchase the vehicle, you must sign and return the Purchase Agreement together with any amounts that are then required to be paid. Production of your vehicle will then be commenced and your additional deposit payable under the Purchase Agreement will be held by Elio as a non-refundable deposit (to the extent permitted by applicable law). These procedures may be subject to change.
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   1. Base vehicle and/or option pricing may not be available at the time of your reservation and, if pricing is available, it is subject to change until agreed upon in an executed Purchase Agreement.
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   1. If you do not wish to enter into a Purchase Agreement at the time you are contacted by Elio, you have the option to relinquish your reservation sequence position and defer to a later position to be determined by us (only one deferral is permitted). If you do not communicate your decision to us within ten (10) days of notification, you will automatically be granted such a deferral. This Agreement is not transferable or assignable to another party without the prior written approval of an Elio authorized representative.
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   1. We will establish your reservation sequence position based upon the date of receipt of a fully executed Reservation Agreement and your payment. We may decline reservations to avoid over-subscription or as we deem appropriate in our sole discretion. If your reservation is declined, you will be notified and your Reservation Payment will be refunded.
9. Your Details
   1. From time to time we will ask you to provide information to enable us to perform our obligations under this Agreement. The personal information we collect from you will include the information provided in the signature page of this Agreement or online when you complete the reservation process. We will treat all your personal information as confidential (though we reserve the right to disclose this information in the circumstances set out below). We will keep it securely and we will fully comply with our obligations under applicable data protection and privacy laws. You hereby give us your consent to use your personal information and other information you provide so we can process your reservation and conduct administration, so that Elio can prepare the order and Purchase Agreement, and inform you of any marketing information. We may share this information with other group companies (but not with third parties) for these purposes. From time to time, we may contact you by mail, telephone, email, text and fax for the above purpose and you agree you will not consider any of the above as being a breach of any of your rights under any data privacy, data protection or privacy law. You can opt out of receiving marketing information from us at any time and you may contact us for more information. However, we will still use your information to process your reservation. You may ask for a copy of your information and you may correct any inaccuracies. We will be the responsible party for the management of your personal information. If you wish to make a request with regard to your personal information, please visit our website at eliomotors.com.
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    1. This Agreement is governed by the laws of the State of Colorado, U.S.A., without regard to its conflict of laws provisions. Both parties consent to the exclusive jurisdiction and venue of the state and federal courts in Denver, Colorado, U.S.A

 

[JEBar]

Read it many times my friend.

unfortunately the phrase, "Beating A Dead Horse" comes to mind

your concern is understood and being old school, I'm having trouble with the concept of a sprayed in piston wall .... the bottom line is, Elio Motors is committed to this process .... what you say, what I say is of no consequence .... we hope that as this is being typed one or more motors are undergoing extensive testing .... the results of the testing will determine where they go from here .... I do understand the high compression, long stroke paradigm and I don't believe for one second that they will put a motor in their vehicles that they don't have a high confidence level .... the reality is, they are building a low horse power, low RPM, high mileage motor for commuting .... they aren't building a high performance racer of any sort .... if they were a whole different set of parameters would be involved .... in addition, IAV has a huge stake in the success of this motor .... it exist to design motors for much of the world's automotive industry .... I don't believe for a second that they would risk their reputation and future business by pushing an inferior product

Jim

 

[eddie66]

Reservation holders aren't the only ones wanting more information. Here's an article out of Caddo Commishioner's meeting from the Shrevsport Times yesterday.

http://www.shreveporttimes.com/story/money/business/2014/10/08/elio-assures-make-wheeler/16894951/