Why The Prototypes Have To Wait On The Engine

[JEBar]

What's interesting about that statement is that seat belts were mandated and then we had to pass a law to require people to use them to protect themselves and their loved ones from serious injury or death. LOL(?)

laws should be passed to prevent folks from harming/wronging others .... in 1965 I bought my first vehicle .... it didn't come with seat belts, I installed them and had the only vehicle around with them .... I believe in seat belts but I think mandating it is a terrible law .... its my duty to take the precautions needed for me and my family, its not the government's responsibility .... the same applies to the types of food we eat and so on and so on .... but then, many seem to believe that its the government's responsibility to micromanage their lives .... I'm not one of them

 

[CompTrex]

Ya, right, self-regulating corporations are going to listen to consumers when it comes to vehicle safety, energy independence, clean air, water, environmental, food, and drug issues. We must live on different planets, while sharing the same interest in Elio.

The driving public currently has high expectations for vehicle safety and high mpg ratings because we have it and only because it was initially mandated by regulation in the first place. Apparently you have confidence that big corporations in general (some may) care about the well being of you and yours as their top prioity. I have seen no evidence that's true, only the opposite with Corporate greed of many influencing their decision making process. I could be wrong.

Ah! The age old liberty and personal freedom vs safety and security debate. We're never gonna solve that one and remain friends. I choose friendship.

 

[JEBar]

I bet you're thirty years will seem sweet when your government pension kicks in

don't know that working in various prisons for 30+ years will ever seem sweet .... by working in government (as a non political appointee in a position that required one to work) we gave up any illusions of high wages in exchange for some long term benefits in job security and benefits .... unfortunately, some (if not most) of those benefits are no longer available for the newly employed

 

[John Painter]

self-regulation NEVER works.

100Ks of Americans are not dead, not injured, or not diseased because govt MANDATED seat belts (3-point), collision testing, air bags, anti-pollution controls (esp lead removal), made high-sulfur diesel illegal, imposed fleet average MPG rules.

NONE of those would have happened without govt regulations.

I do agree there's a time and place for government, and sometimes government is good, I just don't think the government really understands when any better than you or I. For example (just one of many), before I could do any research on human subjects in grad school I had to spend a fair amount of time learning about a lot of pretty horrible things our government has done to us, such as the Tuskegee Syphilis experiment http://www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm so that such atrocities are not done again... the government doesn't do a great job in articulating it was not private companies doing this, it was the government itself. I personally find it sickening that the government was not capable of a human empathic understanding why harming all those people for forty years was wrong, and needed to "regulate" humanity to make it stop. I don't think from a regulatory perspective Elio has to add roll cage, crumple zone, air bags, antilock brakes, but the company knows it's the "right" thing to do.

 

[WilliamH]

What's interesting about that statement is that seat belts were mandated and then we had to pass a law to require people to use them to protect themselves and their loved ones from serious injury or death. LOL(?)

Problem is they don't know when to quit.
Seat Belts? Great idea. Had them installed in my '57 AH and had them in my '63 Buick. Always used them until the came up with inertial retractors. Then someone put obnoxious bells in to annoy you until you hooked them. Hate it when they cut you in half on a ranch road. Then they made a law that you had to wear them. (I use a little device to stop them from retracting).
Problem with bureaucrats is they just don't know when to quit.

 

[RUCRAYZE]

I do agree there's a time and place for government, and sometimes government is good, I just don't think the government really understands when any better than you or I. For example (just one of many), before I could do any research on human subjects in grad school I had to spend a fair amount of time learning about a lot of pretty horrible things our government has done to us, such as the Tuskegee Syphilis experiment http://www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm so that such atrocities are not done again... the government doesn't do a great job in articulating it was not private companies doing this, it was the government itself. I personally find it sickening that the government was not capable of a human empathic understanding why harming all those people for forty years was wrong, and needed to "regulate" humanity to make it stop. I don't think from a regulatory perspective Elio has to add roll cage, crumple zone, air bags, antilock brakes, but the company knows it's the "right" thing to do.

You make it seem that the "government" is a singular entity, defining their own needs and reality and operating in their own bubble-
The "right thing to do", and making profits is for another thread. EM is not taking these safety steps and protections to do "the right thing", they are doing it to appeal to a market beyond old motorcycle riders (like me). Imagine how sales would be affected if we all had to ride with helmets! and not get safety accreditation - end of story!

 

[Johnapool]

Remember, the larger the corporation, the more overhead, unless production is massive enough to overcome overhead. It would probably stun us to know how much Toyota has spent, overhead included, on that I-Road. Easily absorbed by a large corporation.....
A well-managed, lean start-up company should be able to produce fewer vehicles for a lower out-the-door cost. Elio shouldn't have to produce their planned 250,000 per year to look good financially initially.
I am still totally convinced that the Elio concept will be the way humans move about in the future. Every day when I see lone individuals driving four-door pickups and Burbs, I think about the difference in fuel consumption if folks had a "runabout" that used 1/4 of the fuel.
This said, I think the Elio certainly is an important part of cutting down on emissions, fossil fuel consumption, and protecting the biosphere. The ATVM loan should not be a difficult decision for the DOE to make.
I also still think this little engine will have all kinds of applications. Lots of alternative uses need a simple, long-lived engine.

 

[Rickb]

Ah! The age old liberty and personal freedom vs safety and security debate. We're never gonna solve that one and remain friends. I choose friendship.

Ah! I agree on the friendship factor.

 

[WilliamH]

You make it seem that the "government" is a singular entity, defining their own needs and reality and operating in their own bubble-
The "right thing to do", and making profits is for another thread. EM is not taking these safety steps and protections to do "the right thing", they are doing it to appeal to a market beyond old motorcycle riders (like me). Imagine how sales would be affected if we all had to ride with helmets! and not get safety accreditation - end of story!

Had an old KZ400. Later an '86 Super Glide.
Belonged to a group called ABATE. (American Bikers Against Totalitarian Enactments)
"Let those who ride decide!"
Don't mind the safety features in the Elio but they all add to the price.
And somehow as the bureaucrats add more and more, I'm beginning to feel like the next will be to pack us in cotton and put us in a bell jar for our own safety.

 

[Lil4X]

Function and use should determine if it is a car or motorcycle not one less wheel. ELIO is not a motorcycle.

I seem to remember several classifications of four-wheel vehicles, including Neighborhood Electric Vehicles (up to 25 mph and Low-Speed Vehicles (up to 32 mph) that were born out of the golf car industry, modified to achieve higher speeds. Top speed was critical because it classified the vehicle for mandatory crash protection. As speeds went up, seat belts, rollover protection, and even crush zones became mandatory - each with an impact on cost. These were originally intended for use in gated communities - some even had provisions to selectively limit speed so they could drive to the country club, select "cart" mode, and travel on the course as a speed-limited golf cart. The sight of one of these in my neighborhood lead me about a year ago to start looking at alternative commuter vehicles, in the process of which I discovered Elio Motors.

With the exception of EM, most makers were developing products for use in suburbia, where traffic congestion was minimal and the vehicle would serve nicely to run around neighborhood for light shopping or other errands. Most of these vehicles, because of their speed limitations were electric - a good choice for low-cost reliability. But DOT standards are MUCH higher once a vehicle is capable of speeds over 35 mph. Now, all kinds of safety equipment and crash testing are mandated by law at this level. You are traveling at speeds that can produce serious injury or death in the event of an accident.

IIHS crash testing is another expensive hurdle for a new automaker. Sure, it's not necessary for a motorcycle, so I think Paul Elio saw a loophole in the regulatory paperwork where motorcycles are not required to be crash-tested. EPA certs are much less regulated as well for motorcycles, so it was a win-win for EM that by developing a tandem vehicle, eliminating half the car, one wheel, brake, and suspension system, the cost of development and certification could be cut drastically. Conventional automakers spend untold millions on testing to qualify for sale in the US, where the Elio vehicle would work around that restriction by being registered as a motorcycle. It's all perfectly legal, but there are potential problems ahead.

EPA certification is not easy, considering the level of emissions and reliability testing required and the length of the test procedure. It's not just lengthy and difficult, it's incredibly expensive, particularly for a small, start-up manufacturer. That's why development of a proprietary engine has been critical to the process. Most small automakers opt to use an existing, fully certified engine built by one of the major automakers for just that reason. Ford, or somebody else could easily sell small engines to EM, and that would be the end of it - but there is a potential problem there. Ford would hold the future of the Elio in its hands - they might just suddenly decide NOT to sell any more engines to EM - and that would be the end of the Elio, forcing it into a sale to Ford just to get it off the market. OK, that's just a scenario, but such a hostile takeover IS possible.

If conventional automakers ever realize the Elio is a serious threat to at least the lower end of the auto market, the big guys are going to start screaming for the Elio to be regulated as a full-fledged automobile, not just a "motor vehicle". They have the money, and they can play rough. Witness the Tucker story in which a revolutionary vehicle was developed for the market - and through manipulation of the "Big 3", was put into a financial hammerlock that spawned congressional investigations, draining Tucker's cash reserves and destroying the company.

Thus far, Paul Elio has managed so far to fly under the radar of the big companies, but as release day approaches, look for that to change. But here's where PE's been smart: by doing all the primary engineering to allow the Elio to be certified as an automobile (albeit a three-wheeled one), the expensive development stuff has already been done. Crush zones, airbags, ABS, VSC, etc, are already built in to the "first article" production. Whether the Elio still slips in under the bar as a "motorcycle" by 2016 is yet to be seen, but it won't require a complete overhaul of the product to build it as an automobile. The engine, drive train, suspension, brakes, and all of the safety sub-systems are approaching completion. Small details like windshield wipers, door latches, lighting, and dozens of other details have been addressed. At this point having to cert the vehicle as an "automobile" will probably increase the cost of the Elio a bit, but it looks like practically all the expensive work has been anticipated and completed.

Whatever, it's going to be far ahead of the "Neighborhood Electric Vehicle", because it will be fully capable (and tested) for highway use, and still have the range to make it a good alternative mount for a real road trip.