Start Stop System

['lio]

Reference for what? Ford's cost. Actually, I found another article where Ford says you can get Start/Stop for $295. At that price, it'll only take you 220,227 miles to break even... $2.25 per gallon * .05 = $0.1125 saved per gallon. One gallon will let you travel 84 miles... $295 for the system / $0.1125 = 2,622.22 times you'd have to repeat the cycle to pay for the system. 2,622.22 * 84 = 220,227 miles

IF your Elio averaged 60MPG because you do a lot of Starting and Stopping, we could argue you'd save up to 10% by having the system installed.
Same math, different numbers -

$2.25 per gallon * .10 = $0.225 saved per gallon. One gallon will let you travel 60 miles... $295 for the system / $0.225 = 1,311.11 times you'd have to repeat the cycle to pay for the system. 1,311.11 * 84 = 78,667 miles to pay for the system.

Now, to play a little...
Gas goes up to $3.00 per gallon. Reasonable assumption, right?

$3.00 per gallon * .10 = $0.30 saved per gallon. One gallon will let you travel 60 miles... $295 for the system / $0.1125 = 983.33 times you'd have to repeat the cycle to pay for the system. 983.33* 60 = 59,000 miles

Suddenly, it looks like this system might just be worth it. It comes down to 3 things.
1. Do you think gas prices will go up?
2. Do you think you'll put 59,000 miles on your Elio?
3. Would you actually use the system?
I'll add one more - 4. Do you think it will affect the resale value of your Elio?



http://www.autoblog.com/2012/09/16/ford-s-auto-stop-start-offers-hope-to-foot-heavy-drivers/

For the 59 percent who are not willing to slow down to save on gasoline consumption, Ford asks how about stop-start technology? The 2013 Ford Fusion is offering EcoBoost with Auto Start-Stop technology, along with EcoBoost only and hybrid and plug-in hybrid offerings. For those taking the survey, they're willing to pay more upfront for green products to save money over time, and Auto Start-Stop adds $295 to the purchase price.

1. yes
2. yes
3. yes
4. likely not (and I tend to drive things to shreds instead of selling anyway)

 

['lio]

It's kind of funny that our replies overlapped but made about the same point. If gas goes up (That'll never happen, right?), it won't take long for a Start/Stop system to pay for itself. If you added a mild (could be very low hp) assist motor - think either robust starter or alternator that acts as a traction motor on startup, you could save much more also. I'd most likely pay for the option if Elio offered it - not because I'd necessarily save money on gas but I'd be doing my part to help get the US off of oil. (I wouldn't mind taking away a major funding source from our enemies abroad...)

yes, saving on imports of oil from places we shouldn't be even friends with, sounds good to me too!

 

['lio]

You would do a poor job in sales.
You started your exposition by throwing a lot of facts(?) out that are nothing but a rehash of what you already said.
( Baffling with your BS)
You denigrated my way of life because I don't happen to live in an overpopulated ant farm.
( My definition of all cities.)
You continued by saying that my opinion didn't matter because I would be forced to do it your way anyway.
With no facts in evidence you said that European mileage measurements showed their cars are more fuel efficient than American.
( Incidentally, 1 Imperial Gallon = a little more than 1.2 US gallons. Does the EU measure MPG in US or Imperial in their tests? )
The last discussion you insisted that the "wiki" was outdated based on one note in the first two or three paragraphs when there was abundant information that it had been updated. Like information that the 2015 F150 2.7L would have S/S tech.
You really need to lighten up.
S/S is probably advantageous in urban areas, but anyone that thinks the first release of a new, too many times delayed, product should be delayed to add technology that isn't essential in getting version 1 out of the door has as much sense as the southern end of a north bound horse.
You will never win an argument or sell someone a product by denigrating them or their way of life.

Hm, I had successful jobs in sales at one point in my life, but hey it's your opinion. If you follow the link provided in my post: the mileage (75 mpg) for the Opel/Vauxhall Corsa, made by GM, is given in US gallons. And no, the EU measures fuel use in liters per 100 kilometers, not in miles per gallon. As for the Wikipedia entry: most about the essence of it is based on older implementations of SSS, I still stand by that. If you feel denigrated, I can't help you with that, other than to suggest that you re-read the above (perhaps a little more carefully this time). Why would I even attempt to denigrate you, your lifestyle or whatever else? Beats me! Ah, but you calling cities "overpopulated ant-farms" ?! whatever...

 

['lio]

It's kind of funny that our replies overlapped but made about the same point. If gas goes up (That'll never happen, right?), it won't take long for a Start/Stop system to pay for itself. If you added a mild (could be very low hp) assist motor - think either robust starter or alternator that acts as a traction motor on startup, you could save much more also. I'd most likely pay for the option if Elio offered it - not because I'd necessarily save money on gas but I'd be doing my part to help get the US off of oil. (I wouldn't mind taking away a major funding source from our enemies abroad...)

I feel the same way and it should stay an option, it should be not built in, because i.e. for people using an Elio for long-haul highway commutes there might be better ways to upgrade and low cost is likely going to stay a main draw.

And I would like a motor that could automatically cut out when cruising on highways... but Elio Motors might be already onto something: because a double automated clutch (automatic transmission Elio) could potentially run the engine at idle rpm as you lift the foot of the gas.

 

['lio]

Sorry TY, I was refering to the amount of oil to make a plastic water bottle. But thanks for re evaluating the start stop. We all know gas will eventually go back up and 59K miles is 2 years for me!

I didn't want to believe it, but the amount of energy per water bottle might be actually right, doing a quick google search for: "amount of oil to make water bottle." I guess my Elio will eventually have it's cupholder filled with water from home...

 

[Anderson Howard]

I didn't want to believe it, but the amount of energy per water bottle might be actually right, doing a quick google search for: "amount of oil to make water bottle." I guess my Elio will eventually have it's cupholder filled with water from home...

The nearest traffic light from here is at least 50 miles away. Why would I want anything that cuts the engine at a light?

 

['lio]

The nearest traffic light from here is at least 50 miles away. Why would I want anything that cuts the engine at a light?

You may not want SSS if you don't live near a traffic light or never come across one, although if you have a good start/stop system it saves you not only at traffic lights, but can even cut down fuel consumption at cruising speeds.

 

[JNR]

Hm, I had successful jobs in sales at one point in my life, but hey it's your opinion. If you follow the link provided in my post: the mileage (75 mpg) for the Opel/Vauxhall Corsa, made by GM, is given in US gallons. And no, the EU measures fuel use in liters per 100 kilometers, not in miles per gallon. As for the Wikipedia entry: most about the essence of it is based on older implementations of SSS, I still stand by that. If you feel denigrated, I can't help you with that, other than to suggest that you re-read the above (perhaps a little more carefully this time). Why would I even attempt to denigrate you, your lifestyle or whatever else? Beats me! Ah, but you calling cities "overpopulated ant-farms" ?! whatever...

I don't quibble with anything you stated, but I like to caution anyone citing European cycle l/km or mpg even if in US mpg. People like to criticize the EPA cycle, but it reflects real world driving much better. I know the vehicle you cite is brand new, but check out these recent similar vehicles when comparing Euro test mpg to real world test Mpg.

http://m.whatcar.com/car-news/real-world-mpg-efficient-small-petrol-cars/1215224

 

[WilliamH]

Right, the savings with any start/stop technology come of the city mileage, at 49mpg, that's 4.9 miles extra per gallon in city traffic, that is in a worst case 10% savings scenario, since most people (with plenty stop lights on their trips) will see a bigger saving (many user reports and studies conclude that), which can be 15% or more. Remember that over 75% of people in the US live in urban areas (see link somewhere above).

Let's assume conservatively a 15% fuel savings with start/stop only, no regeneration or other technology. That would be an extra 7.35 miles per gallon for someone living in a major city with stop and go traffic at red lights. Let's assume the same price for fuel at $2.25 as above and the same price of installation (Ford is way overpriced in that regard): $400 with about 179 gallons of fuel needed to pay for the system. By the way: fuel in many major cities is more expensive right now. If you save 15% of $2.25 for one gallon, that is .34 cents per each 49 miles or per one gallon driven in city traffic. That comes out to 1176 gallons needed to break even for installation. 1176 gallons at 49mpg will be 57,624 miles to break even. Even if you assume that only part of your mileage is in city traffic that is a considerable savings, given that the average price for a gallon of regular fuel in the US as of today is around $2.40 and we are at a low price level right now that might not stay that way, also prices usually increase as the summer driving season starts. If you do the math at $3.50 a gallon you can see that the savings would accumulate so much faster.

All this does not take into account that you will have saved a very significant amount of green house gases and wear on your engine (idling just isn't beneficial for engine life). If you live in the suburbs or even a rural area, your savings are less, even though even the most low-ball estimates come up with an average 5% to 10% in fuel savings with simple start/stop technology for the average driver. In addition you get a more robust battery which will have four times the life expectancy of regular lead acid batteries and perform better in extreme situations. The starter and alternator in most installations with start stop systems are also more efficient and will also save fuel during highway driving. By the way at $400, Ford should be making a profit as well, which of course as someone that wants to see Elio go into production, sound pretty good. The business model anyway appears to offer a very well priced car and many options for upgrades, that will increase the profit margin. Otherwise why would the marshalling centers be even needed if it weren't for adding the options?

Here is the problem: unless internal combustion engines get cleaner and use less fuel, they will be replaced with battery driven cars in the near future. Not that much of an issue if you don't drive long distances or live in areas where charging your battery driven car is easy, for others that will be a problem and even US car companies, such as Ford predict that they will have to include advanced technologies such as start./stop on all cars in the very near future.

One can delay, in the way that the US companies do over here, but that severely cuts into your (Elio's) export chances, since fuel is more expensive in most other countries, and major markets (i.e. Japan and Europe) have buyers and tax systems that favor fuel sipping cars. Both Ford and GM produce much of the cars they sell in overseas markets in those countries themselves, as most US models would gather dust on the dealer lots. Look at the 75mpg combined (3.1 L/100 KM) Opel Corsa that GM started offering in Germany this month, do you really expect the Elio to compete with that four-seater with many amenities on price alone? 84mpg is the anticipated Elio highway mileage, in mixed traffic it will statistically sink to the mid sixties, that's a lot less than the Opel Corsa at 75mpg and that is where start/stop can make a difference in emissions and fuel savings. In Europe for example, producing more emissions is more expensive in yearly vehicle taxes paid by owners as well as taxes levied on the manufacturers.

It seems to me, if selling in overseas markets is part of the strategy, you need to be as fuel efficient as can be. Keep in mind that shipping an Elio to let's say England, would raise the prices through transport and tariffs, that shrinks any cost advantage that you may have had by a lot. It would be great if the Elio sells as well as expected in the US, but a long term strategy will likely mean sales to other markets. Not many car companies (unless they are located in China or India), can exist without offering their vehicles in as many international markets as possible). The other option of course is selling an expensive car or motorcycle, which the Elio isn't.

OK! lets try this again.
It's a diesel.
Diesel has a higher energy density than gas.
It doesn't say combined mileage anyplace in the link.
Not just S/S. Also has braking energy recuperation. Not even sure what all that implies.
And price with 5 sp manual about $23,000 or 3 Elios.
Lets not say England. As one of our British posters has pointed out, it needs head light relocation to meet British MOT.
So lets say it is not a valid comparison.
Incidentally, what is the price / gal for diesel in Europe as compared to regular (ethanol adulterated) gas. I know premium gas is cheaper than diesel here. (Texas)
The last time I was on the east coast (7/2014) I don't think I saw a Diesel pump.
At some point you have to look at comps on price as well as functionality.

Again, as I have repeatedly pointed out my driving is about 70% at over 70MPH so stop trying to sell me on Windows 8 features / benefits when I need multi user / multi tasking back end server. I moved away from the rat race around NY 15 years ago when I retired from AT&T / Bell Labs on a VRIP.

Yes, selling overseas will require meeting their standards. But you have to have a domestic base before you expand.

And I still think most major cities remind me of ant farms. Of course our covenants don't allow property to be sub divided to less than 50 acres.
If you drive in Midtown NY you have my sympathies. I think the last time I was in NY was in '87 or '88 and that was as a management witness in a national level grievance.

 

['lio]

Interesting article:

By 2017, under 50% of new cars will use conventional gas engines
"The biggest fuel economy game-changer in the coming decade is stop/start technology"