If the profit margin on these cars could truly achieve 14% or $1000 bux - I have a hard time figuring out why investors are not jumping all over this thing (Maybe some are and we are in the dark still). Everything I have read about the auto industry - thats seems to be a very impressive number.
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New Engine Unveiling And Testing
- Thread starter Joseph Kidd
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Oh and just to clarify eddie66 - I definitely know your not naysayer trolling - its healthy discussion to monitor external info. This forum is helping keeping many of us sane by discussion good news or bad news or op-eds favorable/unfavorable. My video response was something I found some comfort in that Tesla preorder/future owners had many of the same feelings waiting on their rides and the uncertainty of that startup.. Cheers
Tesla was not particularly well funded early on, not much better than Elio Motors as I recall, though they did have all the buzz of a new EV at the time and ultimately got the ATVM loan. Elio Motors on the other hand is stuipyingly low tech, not particularly "sexy" for investors. Personally I think that's their achilles heel, if Elio was running on a fuel sexier than gasoline like, hydrogen or switch grass oil, or acorns or something... I think that would be more attention grabbing than a ho-humm, old fashioned internal combustion engine running on petrol. That said, like in any entrepreneurial endeavor, there's great potential and great risk, so I'm glad to have a front seat at the show.
Hmmm - What IF: Elio motors was able to put together say a 3 - 5 yr plan to produce an EV version. Heck I can do some math now. Lets take the 1,750 count 18650 series Lithium batts - The Tesla S curb wieght is listed at 2,108 kg (4,647.3 lb). The Elio has a target curb weight of 1,250 lb (570 kg).
Each 18650 battery weighs 48 grams
1 Pound = 453.59237 Grams
48 grams x 1750 = 84,000 grams converts to 185 lbs of battery. (that sounds light to me but thats what each batt weights).
We do not know the weight of the power mgmt system and battery support systems - lets just assume for experiment sake its 250 lbs
Minus the batts in the Tesla S that still leaves us with a 4200 lb car minus batts and support system. Lets just round it down to 4000 lbs.
If the elio is that much lighter than a tesla - lets see what does the elio engine wiegh? Basically get down to empty cars to calculate amount of batters needed. My head hurts so lets just round it here. If the Elio is only 35% of the weight of a Tesla - then
35% of 1,750 batts is 612.5 lets just say 613 lithium batts to power the Elio equivalently or maybe round up to 650.
Tesla has a 380 bhp so 35% of that is - 133 bhp electric motor.
Recharging time should be less however that calculation is beyond the scope of this thought experiment
This is loosey goosey math and a lot of other variables here but you get the idea. They could draw up a go EV strategy and get it on the board far enough along I think it might bring more investor enthusiasm.. jus sayin
Ty
Elio Addict
Huh. I found a 100hp hub motor that could be ADDED to the existing Elio... imagine an extra 100 horses... and the world's only 3 wheel drive car!Hmmm - What IF: Elio motors was able to put together say a 3 - 5 yr plan to produce an EV version. Heck I can do some math now. Lets take the 1,750 count 18650 series Lithium batts - The Tesla S curb wieght is listed at 2,108 kg (4,647.3 lb). The Elio has a target curb weight of 1,250 lb (570 kg).
Each 18650 battery weighs 48 grams
1 Pound = 453.59237 Grams
48 grams x 1750 = 84,000 grams converts to 185 lbs of battery. (that sounds light to me but thats what each batt weights).
We do not know the weight of the power mgmt system and battery support systems - lets just assume for experiment sake its 250 lbs
Minus the batts in the Tesla S that still leaves us with a 4200 lb car minus batts and support system. Lets just round it down to 4000 lbs.
If the elio is that much lighter than a tesla - lets see what does the elio engine wiegh? Basically get down to empty cars to calculate amount of batters needed. My head hurts so lets just round it here. If the Elio is only 35% of the weight of a Tesla - then
35% of 1,750 batts is 612.5 lets just say 613 lithium batts to power the Elio equivalently or maybe round up to 650.
Tesla has a 380 bhp so 35% of that is - 133 bhp electric motor.
Recharging time should be less however that calculation is beyond the scope of this thought experiment
This is loosey goosey math and a lot of other variables here but you get the idea. They could draw up a go EV strategy and get it on the board far enough along I think it might bring more investor enthusiasm.. jus sayin
http://phys.org/news/2012-07-wheel-hub-motor-concept-hybrid.html
Man, how much would it cost if they were installed at the factory in addition to the gas motor? Could they get costs down to $2,000? Would it be worth it to have that much more power and efficiency? Maybe.
I don't have a problem with adding an electric motor however I don't like the added unsprung weight of a hub motor especially on a lightweight three wheeled vehicle such as the Elio as this would have a serious negative effect on vehicle handling dynamics. Instead a more traditional electric motor mounted to the chassis with a chain drive to the rear wheel like a motorcycle would be easy to add and would provide the benefits of electric drive without the handling issues of the extra unsprung mass.
This is actually one of the projects I have been mapping out in my head for an Elio.
WilliamH
Elio Addict
Hmmm - What IF: Elio motors was able to put together say a 3 - 5 yr plan to produce an EV version. Heck I can do some math now. Lets take the 1,750 count 18650 series Lithium batts - The Tesla S curb wieght is listed at 2,108 kg (4,647.3 lb). The Elio has a target curb weight of 1,250 lb (570 kg).
Each 18650 battery weighs 48 grams
1 Pound = 453.59237 Grams
48 grams x 1750 = 84,000 grams converts to 185 lbs of battery. (that sounds light to me but thats what each batt weights).
We do not know the weight of the power mgmt system and battery support systems - lets just assume for experiment sake its 250 lbs
Minus the batts in the Tesla S that still leaves us with a 4200 lb car minus batts and support system. Lets just round it down to 4000 lbs.
If the elio is that much lighter than a tesla - lets see what does the elio engine wiegh? Basically get down to empty cars to calculate amount of batters needed. My head hurts so lets just round it here. If the Elio is only 35% of the weight of a Tesla - then
35% of 1,750 batts is 612.5 lets just say 613 lithium batts to power the Elio equivalently or maybe round up to 650.
Tesla has a 380 bhp so 35% of that is - 133 bhp electric motor.
Recharging time should be less however that calculation is beyond the scope of this thought experiment
This is loosey goosey math and a lot of other variables here but you get the idea. They could draw up a go EV strategy and get it on the board far enough along I think it might bring more investor enthusiasm.. jus sayin
......"What IF: Elio motors was able to put together say a 3 - 5 yr plan to produce an EV version.".........
To what purpose?
The purpose of Elio was a low cost, efficient, quality vehicle.
Where does a two passenger electric vehicle fit in that equation?
Will I be able to drive it from Junction to Ft. Worth and back on one charge?
So in answer to "What if"..........Yawn!
Ty
Elio Addict
My concern with a chain drive is the maintenance involved in maintaining chain tension. The wheel is hanging on suspension so the motor and chain would either have to be on the same swing arm or have some kind of complicated linkage to allow for wheel travel (or a driveshaft). The hub motor, which doesn't weigh very much would be attached to the swing arm. Since almost all braking force is on the front wheels, you could almost do away with the brakes in the rear and use the motor instead. The weight savings from a brake rotor would save unsprung weight. The wheel hub motor in the article was a 100hp version but really, a 25hp model would be enough for the Elio. That's a 50% increase in power and the Elio won't take much power to keep it moving once it is moving. The battery pack could be quite small as we aren't needing 100 mile range. A couple miles of range (okay, 10) would probably all but eliminate the need to run the gas motor on most commutes... What will help mileage the most is during acceleration from a stop.
Ideally, you'd use zero gas and the motor would run on magic and unicorn farts. But, using what is possible and reasonably inexpensive right now, that hub motor and a modest battery pack would add quite the kick in the pants for people wanting a little more sport from their Elio while ALSO making it quite the fuel sipper at other times. (External charger would be a nice way to top those batteries off at night, too)
If I can get the parts, I'll probably tinker with my Elio and have that rear wheel powered electrically somehow. Even a simple switch that puts 10 hp of power to the rear tire every time your foot is off the brake could be all the external control you'd need for that rear motor... unless 10 hp gets you going too fast, I guess.
Hmm... how hard would it be to remove the existing 12V battery and replace it with rechargeable laptop batteries a la Tesla and wire those to that wheel hub in a way that you eliminate the weight of the conventional battery that you'd normally have in addition to the battery pack?
The trick to any EV is in the controller and luckily there are very good off the shelf options available for this which can be programmed simply with a laptop. The controller manages the battery charging and discharging as well as how power is sent from the batteries to the hub when you accelerate. Thanks to many newer cars, and the Elio, being drive-by-wire you can generally tap into the existing accelerator peddle position sensor and redirect this signal into the EV controller. By wiring in a simple selector switch to this sensor you can also direct the signal to the gas engine, electric motor, or both thus running whatever combination you wish.
You can easily buy EV batteries of various sizes off the shelf or assemble one from quality cells yourself however to wire this into the 12V system would require a transformer as EV electric motors run at higher voltages. Some EV controllers may have this capability however the easiest way to do this may be to simply kick the heavy 12V battery to curve, use lithium cells as a compact and light 12v accessory battery, and use the electric motor to push start the gas engine.
I can understand where you are coming from, and you can of course design your vehicle any way you wish, however I believe you will be surprised when you research hub motors a bit more as they are heavier than most people think they are. 25 HP is about 18.6 KW. There are 10 KW continuous hub motors for electric motorcycles out on the market which can do 20+ KW in a burst so this is likely the type which would be useful to have for a hub or off hub installation. However the problem is that even these relatively small motors in hub form weigh in at about 22 kg or about 48 lbs. 48 lbs is likely about as much, if not more than, the entire unsprung weight currently on the Elio rear end including the swingarm. Replacing the OEM hub and brakes with a EV motorcyle hub would cut out some weight redundancy however you would be looking at only a few pounds of savings and this would also cause you to lose the electronic driving aids in the car as the ABS/TCS/ESC system is designed for and dependent on the rear brakes. So even a relatively small hub motor would add 40+ lbs of unsprung weight which would have a huge affect on such a light vehicle as well as disabling the electronic driving aid functionality.
Running a chain drive to a swingarm mounted wheel and maintaining proper tension is actually easy to do and can be done inexpensively with off the shelf parts from motorcycles as this is exactly how most motorcycles operate. A 10 KW continuous motor which can burst to 20+ KW and can be chassis mounted weighs in at about 17 KG however with the added gear for the chain drive it would actually weight about the same as the hub motor however only a small amount of this weight would be unsprung. This means the vehicle should handle about the same and keep all its electronic driving aids intact.