Just Wow!!!

[RSchneider]

I think my post has been misinterpreted slightly. My main objection to turbos is not that they are a hight maintenance item. Modern day turbos do hold up well. My main point is that they are a performance thing and do not usually help with economy. Manufacturers claim that by using a turbo they can go with a smaller engine in order to get better gas mileage. If you compare specs of the smaller turbo engines, they don't get any better mileage than the earlier non-turbo engines.
And if I remember correctly, the Elio is primarily promoted as an economy vehicle.

You have to remember, it's the mileage vs the power output. The smaller turbo engines are getting much better mileage but they are making way more power. This is why Honda can stick a 190hp 1.5l turbo motor in a CRV. It has great performance and the economy is not suffering. Honda sticks in tiny non turbo motors in their home market because they need economy. In the US, we want something big and it needs to scoot down the road.

If Elio was going after economy, then they would literally choose a VW TDI motor that blows the doors off of any gasser motor when it comes to mileage. If the existing Elio motor can give 84 mpg, the VW TDI would hit 100. Plus Elio could just choose a 60-70hp 3 cylinder already out there with no turbo and call it a day.

I'll give you an example and we will use a VW Jetta as for comparing what cars used to give:
1986 Gas Manual - 23/31 and it had a 1.8l 85hp
1986 Diesel Manual - 31/40 and it had a 1.6l 50hp
1986 Turbo Diesel Manual - 31/38 and it had a 1.6l 70hp
2019 Gas Manual - 30/40 and it has a 1.4l 148hp

So, over 33 years VW has a Jetta which makes 63hp more with a motor that's 400cc less and gives 7/9 better on fuel mileage.

They don't sell the Jetta in Europe but if I go with the Golf I can get an idea.
2019 Gas Manual - 5.4l/100km and it has a 1.5l 150hp
2019 Gas Manual - 4.7l/100km and it has a 1.0l 115hp

As you can see a 1000cc 3 cylinder VW TSI motor has better mileage over the 1.5l 4 cylinder. So that's about 13% improvement. If you equated it to the US Jetta and how we compute MPG, then it's 34/45 if they offered the 1000cc 3 cylinder turbo. On the other hand, we lived with 85hp back in 1986 but could we live with 115hp today in a Jetta. Probably not. On the other hand, with it pushing twice the air and weighs twice as much, that 1.0l TSI motor in a Elio would be kick butt. Then if they used the 7 speed DSG transmission, you get paddleshift and even better mileage.

If people don't want better mileage and performance, then I guess that's where we should go.

 

[Bilbo B]

If Elio was going after economy, then they would literally choose a VW TDI motor that blows the doors off of any gasser motor when it comes to mileage. If the existing Elio motor can give 84 mpg, the VW TDI would hit 100. Plus Elio could just choose a 60-70hp 3 cylinder already out there with no turbo and call it a day.

If they used the Volkswagen TDI they'd blow the doors off the emission tests, too

I've got a 2017 Honda Civic Si with their 1.5l Turbo. It regularly gets 41 MPG in mixed Highway/City, fairly spirited driving (I'll push the tac close to red line to pull out on the highway or pass without hesitation), and can pass on a 2 lane highway without even downshifting if you have a bit of room. It has a terrific torque range, gets good mileage, is a blast to drive. That's what I'd want from an Elio, too. I was actually somewhat disappointed that by having a SIL, a turbo wasn't going to be an option with the custom engine. I've never driven a Ford EcoBoost, but if it's anything like Honda's, I'll be thrilled.

 

[W. WIllie]

I love my Turboed Insight with the 1l engine and weighing around 2K pounds. Across county 6X I always average 60+ MPG even with running 75-80 MPH most of the way. That is without using a lot of turbo also. Just because you have a turbo doesn't mean your mileage will suffer. The turbo just spinning at 0" of vacuum will assist the gas engine in MPG.

 

[RSchneider]

If they used the Volkswagen TDI they'd blow the doors off the emission tests, too

They were not the only ones cheating. Its that we in the US made punished them over and over again just to make an example of them. Hopefully the Elio does have a Chevy ignition switch. They don't pollute.

If you peeled the VW badge off of the motor and it gave 100 mpg, I bet you'd look the other way. We already are looking the other way because the Elio is a motorcycle and does not have to meet car emissions.

My wife has a CRV with the 1.5l Turbo 4 in it that makes 190hp and it even has a CVT. It's got more than enough power. My wife gets the 34 mpg Honda says it does on the highway. I can't complain because that thing is pretty big for a small SUV. Turbos are not becoming standard on SUV's. So if a soccer mom can have what used to be called a high performance turbo motor, then they can't be that bad.

My brother bought a brand new a 1986 SVO mustang and that bad boy (with the 2.3l 4 cyl motor) cranked out a whopping 200hp. That was the same as the 5 dot oh. Back then that was fast and on the limit of performance. I do remember it gave around 23 mpg on the highway and like 17 in the city because my brother was not too happy with how much gas it sucked up. I had to just ask him about that car. I do know that the turbo went out on it, the intake hoses were leaking on a regular basis and it really burned lots of oil before he got rid of it. He told me he only put 60K on it. That was not one his wisest decisions when it came to a car purchase. At the same time he had a Peugeot 505 Turbo and even though it was butt ugly, it had the best ride of any car I can remember and it was built like a tank. For a while my brother was known as "that guy" when it came to the oddball cars.

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

"He probably the most qualified person here."

Annnd you know that how? Just curious...

I know that he is a talented mechanic and works an important role in the aviation community.
To do so requires in depth knowledge and experience of components and systems and their
Cost: Performance:Weight:Reliability:Safety relationships.

When it comes to engineering, I trust his opinion over my own.

Changing subject:
Diesel isn't going to happen. EVER. Let....it....go....

Changing subject:
Turbo.
As stated above, there is the Cost: Performance:Weight:Reliability:Safety relationships
I'll focus on Cost:Reliability: Performance
Change one, and others are effected.
Cost: This is a primary factor and has priority.
Reliability: Also a priority.
Performance: We started with 55 hp and we knew it coming to the game. More is a nice to have, and can be increased by option.

As stated before, turbos increase the stress on the seals, pistons, connecting rods, valves, and other components. You will be sacrificing reliability and cost for performance. More parts, more things to go wrong, more money to purchase, more money to maintain over the life of the vehicle.

You can spew all of the techno babble you want, cars without turbos last longer than car with turbos.

Turbos are unnecessary on the Elio.
Turbos will increase cost and complexity on the Elio.
Turbos will negatively effect the reliability of the Elio.
An option is fine, standard is a bad idea.
Period.

As for FUD, that's other peoples established job here.

 

[RSchneider]

cars without turbos last longer than car with turbos.

If you can provide the proof of that, I'd appreciate it. Last thing we want is FUD.

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

If you can provide the proof of that, I'd appreciate it. Last thing we want is FUD.

Sure:

“Traditional turbos from Audi, Volkswagen and BMW have been reliable when they are relatively new but developed problems as they aged. Newer turbo engines, such as the EcoBoost from Ford, have not always been reliable, even from the start.” Consumer Reports 2015

“Small turbocharged engines aren’t delivering on the fuel-efficiency claims by the manufacturers.”
Consumer Reports Feb. 5, 2013

https://www.consumerreports.org/cro...on-t-deliver-on-fuel-economy-claims/index.htm

That took me 2 minutes to find.

I'll accept your appreciation in the form of silence.

 

[W. WIllie]

2013 article. It is now 2018.

 

[RUCRAYZE]

where /when will it last, although nice reading all your expertise, we all remain FOS when it gets down to the ELIO. :-)
Close your eyes and think India/China, the home of the E.

 

[RSchneider]

That was a 5 year old article and never really explains a thing. What they never get into is that these engines need to conform to newer emission standards and the current non DI, non turbo engines at the time were having a much more difficult time reaching those emissions standards and yet giving the performance people in the US demand. Car manufacturers have a 10 year plan because they know what they have to reach. So it makes no sense to make a non turbo non DI motor because they will be caught off down the road.

As for reliability, Consumer reports does not take into account that all new clean sheet of paper engines have reliability problems early on. This is why I previously mentioned the E888 motor which had timing chain, balance shaft and intake plugging issues. None of those items would be more reliable if it was a non turbo. BMW had problems with injectors on the first turbo DI motors. They would end up sounding like a diesel. Yes, they had a turbo issue with the wastegate actuator the first year. BMW replaced all of those items under warranty the first year of production. As of today, that BMW engine is turning out to be a workhorse motor and lasting many miles which can literally be tuned to give out 400hp reliably. Same for the engine in the F30. VW's issues were with the Gen 1 E888 and with Gen 4, the engine is getting better.

My old Z4 I had was the 4th year of production for that motor. On year one, they suffered from cracked cylinder heads and faulty DISA valves. By year 2 they fixed those issues. I could claim that a non turbo inline 6 is a terrible engine because they break all of the time as long as I use year one as where I pull my data points from.