Financing Elio Motors Development And Production

[creekstone]

I typed in "Elio Scam" and not one link came up calling Elio a scam.

There's a big difference between a scam and a failed business launch.
Elio Motors is not a scam. But it is definitely an ambitious project.
Only time will tell if Elio can move the ball all the way down the field and score a touchdown.

I don't think whattheelf is implying Elio Motors is a scam. He/she just doesn't think Elio has the funding to get it done. Fair enough. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

But whattheelf referenced "experts" and "articles" that support his/her opinion. I, for one, would like to see those and judge the credibility myself.

 

[Ty]

No doubt the Elio sales pitch is compelling, as well as idyllic, and thats the problem. Reality is it takes nearly 1B of investment to bring a 5 star crash rated DOT compliant, and reliable vehicle into an increasingly crowded and competitive low end market, period. A "goal" of 200M doesn't get them anywhere near the tooling and automation they would need to hit their advertised price point, every credible business and operations knows that, its got nothing to do with whether I want, like, or don't like the Elio. If the business model is significantly flawed as it is,it will never hit critical mass, for the masses, because a company cannot on handbuilding prototypes forever. So its an issue of cash flow, and probability of profitablility.

You would think, at this point, past half a decade now, that Elio would be flooding the press releases regarding its leapfrog achievements in operations, dazzling us with photos of their advanced automation, assembly, and materal handling systems, etc etc etc, actual meat, the stuff that really matters. But all you and I see is fancy promo vehicle pictures, promises, and the drive by dog and pony shows at trade shows juggling a few prototypes, there is nothing behind this curtain. There is no depth to this bench unfortunately, and so this is why instead of wasting your time, money, and energy investing 1 dollar into this crock of an operation, you'd be far better off assessing the established alternative vehicle landscape as it is, and will be, by the time EM gets anywhere close to a "production" date.

I keep waiting for someone here to critique and challenge me on the business model, real data, beyond the hype marketing, and into all of their business and operations model, yet no one, just straw man argumentative hurt feelings responses, so far. I'd love it to happen, but we're not a country with all its costs of business and regulations that can enable such a company to emerge, at least not profitably. This is the primary issue, its not that they can't come up with a nice looking design, or a vision of how things could be for a niche consumer, the problem is they can't make any money at it, nor would a big car company, whom could afford the tax writeoff, something EM does not have the luxury of. Again, open to debate on EM, not the vehicle, but the business.

Luckily, Elio isn't going to get DOT crash certification... He only said "Engineered for a 5 star crash test rating"... not that they would go that route.... Besides, DOT doesn't crash test motorcycles. They already have the tooling and autormation (from the GM plant) which they JUST secured - thus no fancy pictures, etc.

 

[Rickb]

There's a big difference between a scam and a failed business launch.
Elio Motors is not a scam. But it is definitely an ambitious project.
Only time will tell if Elio can move the ball all the way down the field and score a touchdown.

I don't think whattheelf is implying Elio Motors is a scam. He/she just doesn't think Elio has the funding to get it done. Fair enough. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

But whattheelf referenced "experts" and "articles" that support his/her opinion. I, for one, would like to see those and judge the credibility myself.

I have read a couple of anti-Elio Op-Ed reviews........they are a writer's opinion based on no fact whatsoever.......and not credible. Why give that negative reviewer yet another opportunity to platform his negative crap on this Elio fan forum?

 

[whattheelf]

Luckily, Elio isn't going to get DOT crash certification... He only said "Engineered for a 5 star crash test rating"... not that they would go that route.... Besides, DOT doesn't crash test motorcycles. They already have the tooling and autormation (from the GM plant) which they JUST secured - thus no fancy pictures, etc.

Engineered for a 5 star test rating vs. actually doing the costly and time consuming testing what "works" on a CAD file, are a completely different thing. If you think an untested "engineered" approach at face value is enough, you really have no idea what product development entails and how many permutations of changes become necessary after real world testing. Before I would even drive one of these I'd need to see certified and audited test results from a 3rd party. Just because its a "motorcycle", does not cut it once you are fully enclosed within a cage that is going to envelop you nearly completely and instaneously in a crash.

I don't believe the Elio is scam, it will just be a failed startup. I'm a fan of the Elio design, but no fan of this company, they cannot execute nomatter how you slice it, and the team in place is not the team to take from the 20 yard line downfield. Yes we do need dreamers, visionaries, people to bring us into far more sustainable modes and methods of transportation. However, more importantly, we also need people that can turn a dreamers' idea into a viable business model, and they are completely different capabilities and skillsets, and those resources take considerable funding the don't and won't get, and it takes dozens of competent experienced teams of people countless hours to make something like this happen, which they also do not have.

As a complex consumer product engineer and industrial designer for over 25 years now, and including several senior officer level positions within worldwide and domestic production operations, unless you've done this before, multiple times, both succeeding and failing, with even the best of breed, you won't have an idea how embarrassing EM is going to fail sooner than later. Startups must achieve significant milestones at key stages in order to survive, and this one has been stuck at Phase 0 most of its active life. If your paid reservation is a vote for approval for the concept, I can respect that, you want the little guy with a big dream to press on regardless. However, if you are expecting your reservation to yield an actual vehicle, if your reservation is say higher #500, you might as well forget it. Opinions are one thing, I expect push back from the dreamers that have nearly zero experience in complex consumer/transportation product development, but before you plunk down any serious deposits, seek out informed opinions. I don't post an informed perspective for my own jollies, I just hate to see people get hurt under "a sucker is born every minute" moniker.

If EM had any real ambition, or were grounded in reality, with alot less ego, they would be off 7 days a week trying to sell their concept "baby" to a sizable established operation that can actually handle year over year millions of dollars losses, and also deliver more than a few hundred into Phase 1. No private equity firm is going to pony up the amounts necessary to fund such losses, especially when they do not and will not have the team and facilities in place that can slow the bleedout, nor does private investment deliver the caliber of individuals necessary to make such a product happen, and nor are those caliber individuals going to leave where they may be to undertake such an extremely high risk with virtually zero payoff.

Again, big fan of the design, but please put it in the hands of an operation that can actually produce the product that has a real world dealer network, otherwise you get what you deserve if you buy into this, sorry to say.

 

[Ty]

Engineered for a 5 star test rating vs. actually doing the costly and time consuming testing what "works" on a CAD file, are a completely different thing. If you think an untested "engineered" approach at face value is enough, you really have no idea what product development entails and how many permutations of changes become necessary after real world testing. Before I would even drive one of these I'd need to see certified and audited test results from a 3rd party. Just because its a "motorcycle", does not cut it once you are fully enclosed within a cage that is going to envelop you nearly completely and instaneously in a crash.

I don't believe the Elio is scam, it will just be a failed startup. I'm a fan of the Elio design, but no fan of this company, they cannot execute nomatter how you slice it, and the team in place is not the team to take from the 20 yard line downfield. Yes we do need dreamers, visionaries, people to bring us into far more sustainable modes and methods of transportation. However, more importantly, we also need people that can turn a dreamers' idea into a viable business model, and they are completely different capabilities and skillsets, and those resources take considerable funding the don't and won't get, and it takes dozens of competent experienced teams of people countless hours to make something like this happen, which they also do not have.

As a complex consumer product engineer and industrial designer for over 25 years now, and including several senior officer level positions within worldwide and domestic production operations, unless you've done this before, multiple times, both succeeding and failing, with even the best of breed, you won't have an idea how embarrassing EM is going to fail sooner than later. Startups must achieve significant milestones at key stages in order to survive, and this one has been stuck at Phase 0 most of its active life. If your paid reservation is a vote for approval for the concept, I can respect that, you want the little guy with a big dream to press on regardless. However, if you are expecting your reservation to yield an actual vehicle, if your reservation is say higher #500, you might as well forget it. Opinions are one thing, I expect push back from the dreamers that have nearly zero experience in complex consumer/transportation product development, but before you plunk down any serious deposits, seek out informed opinions. I don't post an informed perspective for my own jollies, I just hate to see people get hurt under "a sucker is born every minute" moniker.

If EM had any real ambition, or were grounded in reality, with alot less ego, they would be off 7 days a week trying to sell their concept "baby" to a sizable established operation that can actually handle year over year millions of dollars losses, and also deliver more than a few hundred into Phase 1. No private equity firm is going to pony up the amounts necessary to fund such losses, especially when they do not and will not have the team and facilities in place that can slow the bleedout, nor does private investment deliver the caliber of individuals necessary to make such a product happen, and nor are those caliber individuals going to leave where they may be to undertake such an extremely high risk with virtually zero payoff.

Again, big fan of the design, but please put it in the hands of an operation that can actually produce the product that has a real world dealer network, otherwise you get what you deserve if you buy into this, sorry to say.

Phase 0 is securing a production facility, designing the vehicle, having a motor designed, four prototypes fielded, maintenance lined up, production equipment in place, 17,000 customers with deposits down to buy, and a team out promoting the vehicle with the prototypes... What will phase 1 be? I think they are making great progress so far.

5 star crash testing... They are going to use several of the P5s for crash testing. They just won't go into the lengthy certification process (I'm assuming it is lengthy though each model year vehicle is tested and certified by each manufacturer so it must take WAY less than a year to do)

It seems they have the professionals they need to get the thing moving. So, they have a design, a motor, a transmission, maintenance support, a facility with a FUNCTIONAL assembly line that was used to produce GASP, vehicles. It seems they are going to be able to skip a lot of the facility start up that plagues most manufacturers that are just starting up. I'm no product engineer or industrial designer but I AM an industrial engineer who happens to have worked at the very plant that Elio is taking over and am familiar with the equipment therein. They are going to make it. You'll see.

 

[creekstone]

I have read a couple of anti-Elio Op-Ed reviews........they are a writer's opinion based on no fact whatsoever.......and not credible. Why give that negative reviewer yet another opportunity to platform his negative crap on this Elio fan forum?

If whattheelf wants to reference "experts" and "articles" to bolster his credibility, whattheelf should share the links.

If whattheelf fails to provide links OR provides links to the non-credible "negative crap" we've seen before, that tells me all I need to know about whattheelf.

 

[Jim H]

Engineered for a 5 star test rating vs. actually doing the costly and time consuming testing what "works" on a CAD file, are a completely different thing. If you think an untested "engineered" approach at face value is enough, you really have no idea what product development entails and how many permutations of changes become necessary after real world testing. Before I would even drive one of these I'd need to see certified and audited test results from a 3rd party. Just because its a "motorcycle", does not cut it once you are fully enclosed within a cage that is going to envelop you nearly completely and instaneously in a crash.

I don't believe the Elio is scam, it will just be a failed startup. I'm a fan of the Elio design, but no fan of this company, they cannot execute nomatter how you slice it, and the team in place is not the team to take from the 20 yard line downfield. Yes we do need dreamers, visionaries, people to bring us into far more sustainable modes and methods of transportation. However, more importantly, we also need people that can turn a dreamers' idea into a viable business model, and they are completely different capabilities and skillsets, and those resources take considerable funding the don't and won't get, and it takes dozens of competent experienced teams of people countless hours to make something like this happen, which they also do not have.

As a complex consumer product engineer and industrial designer for over 25 years now, and including several senior officer level positions within worldwide and domestic production operations, unless you've done this before, multiple times, both succeeding and failing, with even the best of breed, you won't have an idea how embarrassing EM is going to fail sooner than later. Startups must achieve significant milestones at key stages in order to survive, and this one has been stuck at Phase 0 most of its active life. If your paid reservation is a vote for approval for the concept, I can respect that, you want the little guy with a big dream to press on regardless. However, if you are expecting your reservation to yield an actual vehicle, if your reservation is say higher #500, you might as well forget it. Opinions are one thing, I expect push back from the dreamers that have nearly zero experience in complex consumer/transportation product development, but before you plunk down any serious deposits, seek out informed opinions. I don't post an informed perspective for my own jollies, I just hate to see people get hurt under "a sucker is born every minute" moniker.

If EM had any real ambition, or were grounded in reality, with alot less ego, they would be off 7 days a week trying to sell their concept "baby" to a sizable established operation that can actually handle year over year millions of dollars losses, and also deliver more than a few hundred into Phase 1. No private equity firm is going to pony up the amounts necessary to fund such losses, especially when they do not and will not have the team and facilities in place that can slow the bleedout, nor does private investment deliver the caliber of individuals necessary to make such a product happen, and nor are those caliber individuals going to leave where they may be to undertake such an extremely high risk with virtually zero payoff.

Again, big fan of the design, but please put it in the hands of an operation that can actually produce the product that has a real world dealer network, otherwise you get what you deserve if you buy into this, sorry to say.

IMHO go find somewhere else to play

 

[whattheelf]

If whattheelf wants to reference "experts" and "articles" to bolster his credibility, whattheelf should share the links.

If whattheelf fails to provide links OR provides links to the non-credible "negative crap" we've seen before, that tells me all I need to know about whattheelf.

Ok chief, so lets start with this recent link just this month:
http://gas2.org/2014/05/01/another-company-may-snatch-elio-motors-factory/

Snarky as that author may be, among several from him, the local commissioners likely understand clearly their relationship with EM is a bad bet, its not brought the promised jobs, nor will they, the locals know the operation is vaporware, go there yourself and ask others that will tell you whats not going on in the factory and how few are making anything there, the jobs are not materializing.

But, honestly, please should you know something different, nothing stalls and kills buildout plans and investment than uncertainty like that news. So please contribute the link that refutes this information, anxiously awaiting.

Plenty of others are closely following the information flow out of Elio and in and around where they are located. Just google the links yourself, you do the research/assessment. Just google "Elio financials" for example and you will quickly discover the debacle going on. Yes I know the pesky details that get in the way of your dream. If you ever had to create a post-grad business plan, this one is amateur hour, and is embarrassing.

Last, that said, instead why don't YOU provide ONE credible shred of evidence that this company has a real measureable and complete business strategy other than a pile of hype. Honestly, dazzle me with your incredible knowledge and experience why this B team is somehow ready for the big leagues.

Again, anxiously awaiting your informed opinion to set me straight.

 

[creekstone]

Ok chief, so lets start with this recent link just this month:
http://gas2.org/2014/05/01/another-company-may-snatch-elio-motors-factory/

chief creekstone... I like it!

If that one link is your lifeline to credibility, you have some catching up to do.
Old news. Minor setback. Elio Motors is back on track.

What else you got?

 

[whattheelf]

You show me the proof Elio is back on track, share the reconciliation details, show me the jobs, show me the plant modifications, etc etc.

Also, refute this assessment in detail, chief, because you seem to be internet challenged:

http://cleantechnica.com/2013/08/19/paul-elio-motors-releases-financials/

Again, present one credible source or link to just one source that says this company will make it, I'm still waiting. You only get asked twice, after that your credibility is punted to the curb.