Elio Gauge Cluster - Lord Elgin? - Other Options?

[CrimsonEclipse]

I am always willing to listen to a well reasoned argument.
Please explain how 9% of a group represents a reasonable sample.
Always remembering that famous old statement popularized by Mark Twain .......
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics"
Incidentally, I plan to install an OBD II sourced HUD in my Elio.

A sample size of 9% is an unusually large size. A sample size of less than 1% is absolutely acceptable assuming it's a well distributed sample.

A questionnaire can be used as a "lie" and its results skewed to make Mr. Clemens correct, but that usually includes loaded questions.

Is the Elgin Dash:
1. bad
2. really bad
3. gave me cancer
4. don't mess with Texas

This poll is REALLY simple, yes or no. No double negatives, no diversions, yes or no.
This simplicity actually makes the survey more accurate.

This poll does not, in any way, provide any meaningful sampling. It's a self-selected subset of the most rabid fans. Most of us have a penchant for customizing our vehicles, and have strong opinions for what we do and do not like. We already know that most of us are older men eligible for AARP membership. We can, by no stretch of the imagination, be considered "typical" customers. This is so far from a statically significant, representative sampling that you'd be laughed out the door if you tried to present it as such. In fact, you could almost represent this poll as a deliberate attempt to sample only those already known to be biased *against* it.

In order to claim statistical significance, sample selection is critical. Random sampling of a significant portion of the population is the only reliable method. A poll on this website can't claim that.


That two pounds can be a valid sample, so long as it is a randomly selected sample, that could reasonably assumed to be representative of the load as a whole. If, on the other hand, you grabbed a bunch that were next to an access hatch with a leaky seal, that's a bad sample.

You can achieve accurate results with smaller sample sizes, assuming your sampling methodology is sound. You just have to be aware that the smaller your sample size the greater the level of uncertainty, and the lower the confidence level.

You assume that the users on this forum are ALL rabid fans.
This forum actually represents an accurate cross section of the Elio population.
Being an Elio forum, a sampling of the population here is more accurate that a sampling of the general population since the mind set of the population on Elio Owners is what matters vs the mind set of the general population that may or may not desire the car.

 

[wizard of ahs]

.........

Also, never liked the automatic door locks or the seat belt warning buzzer. (Wonder how much extra those cost?)

I don't know, BUT I DO KNOW how much it will cost me to disconnect them

 

[WilliamH]

I don't know, BUT I DO KNOW how much it will cost me to disconnect them

Wouldn't be an issue if some bureaucrat hadn't mandated them.
Note: Bureaucrat, not elected representative!

 

[W. WIllie]

A small "dash plaque".....IN MEMORY OF would have been my suggestion.

 

[Lil4X]

The instrument panel is the part of the car that will face the guy who laid down the bucks for it 98% of the time he's anywhere near the car. If it's ugly, or worse, poorly designed or minimally useful, it's going to be right there - a thorn in his side for as long as he owns it. Is it a deal breaker? No, but the instrument cluster is a serious aesthetic item for any car as well as being a diagnostic tool and a running reminder that what's going on just forward of your footwell is important and worth monitoring. Psychologically, it's going to be center stage in your visual field, and it's going to have a big role in your perception of the vehicle and will color your enjoyment of it. It's important because of its location. Did you ever buy the cheapest model in a car's line only to be taunted by all those blanked holes in the dash where a whole collection of options you didn't buy stare back at you, mocking your choices (or lack of them)? That's the very description of frustration and incipient buyer's remorse.

Early in my driving career I owned a series of vehicles that were best described as intended for the taxicab market. Yes, they were cheap, but worse were all those little blanks confronting me every time I got in the car. I spent months hunting a factory radio for my '52 Dodge, not so much for the radio itself, but to plug four gaping holes in the dash that were covered by plastic plugs. I spent even more time hunting down a factory clock - not that I needed to know the time, but the plug that covered its space was a bright chromed pot-metal piece that was totally out of place. I eventually found a 1927 Chevy spring-wound clock that would fit - with a little modification, although the "self winding" feature periodically engaged a big 6V solenoid that "wound" the clock about a quarter turn every two or three hours. It sounded like someone dropped a steel 55 gallon oil drum every time it ran the little mainspring down and closed a large pair of contacts . . . KA-CHUNGGGgggggg!! The dashboard would ring for about three seconds afterward. I lived with it, even though it would sneak up and scare me to death every now and then. I'd rather have the random noise than stare at the reminder of another option I didn't buy every time I got behind the wheel.

In the '50's and '60's auto stylists went crazy trying to out-Buck Rogers the competition with zoomy "space age" instrument panels. Most were just odd, many didn't work too well, and some were absolutely unreadable. The Elgin cluster falls into the latter category. It's difficult to read, does not communicate well with the driver, and is a total waste of space in that critical area directly in front of the driver. There has never been an improvement on the old "needles and numbers" of the "steam gauge" instruments that read at a glance, both number, and trend.

It's so much worse when your instruments don't communicate well. A handful of "idiot lights" don't tell you anything about what's happening under the hood either - well other than that light coming on means you need to reach for your wallet . . . something you had no idea was going wrong just reached criticality up there, and it's going to be expensive. Moving needles and stationary numbers communicate directly. You don't need to know that your engine temperature is 229 degrees - unless you know that it means that things are pretty warm up front and bear watching. Rapidly changing numbers don't indicate exactly what's happening - other than change. You need a separate instrument to indicate the trend of the readings, whether up or down, and over what period of time. That's just WAY to complicated.

I don't need much, but a voltmeter that will not only keep me informed as to the state of my battery, but will also tell me my accessory drive is running - the alternator is turning, as is the power steering pump and on some vehicles, the engine fan, the air conditioner compressor, are turning as well providing an early-warning of incipient failure. Your fuel gauge is important on a car that only carries a smidge over 7 gallons of fuel. High mileage can lull you into inattention to the presence of your local supply of pushwater. An oil pressure gauge will let you know not only that you have sufficient oil supply to the whirly-bits, but that it is consistent (not foaming) and give you an idea of how MUCH pressure is available rather than that there is SOME oil available in the system, long before a trail of blue smoke in the rear view informs you of the same. Your temperature gauge tells you with some precision what's going on down in the engine room. A creep of a few degrees may indicate problems like a water leak or bubbles in the coolant stream. It can indicate a stuck thermostat, and by its analog nature along with that of your oil pressure gauge, provide a reference to the overall health of your power plant at a glance.

There are several panels in the aftermarket that will allow you to display all kinds of geeky things, dwell time, injector pulse width, even time your quarter mile for you. announcing your shift points along the way. That gets to be a case of overkill very quickly and between figuring my best launch RPM, setting my GPS for my destination, my Pandora selection of entertainment, my next gas stop, a handy place to stop for lunch, and reminders for phone calls and appointments to be made today, I'm going to be plenty busy dividing time between my instruments and my windshield.

 

[Smitty]

The instrument panel is the part of the car that will face the guy who laid down the bucks for it 98% of the time he's anywhere near the car. If it's ugly, or worse, poorly designed or minimally useful, it's going to be right there - a thorn in his side for as long as he owns it. Is it a deal breaker? No, but the instrument cluster is a serious aesthetic item for any car as well as being a diagnostic tool and a running reminder that what's going on just forward of your footwell is important and worth monitoring. Psychologically, it's going to be center stage in your visual field, and it's going to have a big role in your perception of the vehicle and will color your enjoyment of it. It's important because of its location. Did you ever buy the cheapest model in a car's line only to be taunted by all those blanked holes in the dash where a whole collection of options you didn't buy stare back at you, mocking your choices (or lack of them)? That's the very description of frustration and incipient buyer's remorse.

Early in my driving career I owned a series of vehicles that were best described as intended for the taxicab market. Yes, they were cheap, but worse were all those little blanks confronting me every time I got in the car. I spent months hunting a factory radio for my '52 Dodge, not so much for the radio itself, but to plug four gaping holes in the dash that were covered by plastic plugs. I spent even more time hunting down a factory clock - not that I needed to know the time, but the plug that covered its space was a bright chromed pot-metal piece that was totally out of place. I eventually found a 1927 Chevy spring-wound clock that would fit - with a little modification, although the "self winding" feature periodically engaged a big 6V solenoid that "wound" the clock about a quarter turn every two or three hours. It sounded like someone dropped a steel 55 gallon oil drum every time it ran the little mainspring down and closed a large pair of contacts . . . KA-CHUNGGGgggggg!! The dashboard would ring for about three seconds afterward. I lived with it, even though it would sneak up and scare me to death every now and then. I'd rather have the random noise than stare at the reminder of another option I didn't buy every time I got behind the wheel.

In the '50's and '60's auto stylists went crazy trying to out-Buck Rogers the competition with zoomy "space age" instrument panels. Most were just odd, many didn't work too well, and some were absolutely unreadable. The Elgin cluster falls into the latter category. It's difficult to read, does not communicate well with the driver, and is a total waste of space in that critical area directly in front of the driver. There has never been an improvement on the old "needles and numbers" of the "steam gauge" instruments that read at a glance, both number, and trend.

It's so much worse when your instruments don't communicate well. A handful of "idiot lights" don't tell you anything about what's happening under the hood either - well other than that light coming on means you need to reach for your wallet . . . something you had no idea was going wrong just reached criticality up there, and it's going to be expensive. Moving needles and stationary numbers communicate directly. You don't need to know that your engine temperature is 229 degrees - unless you know that it means that things are pretty warm up front and bear watching. Rapidly changing numbers don't indicate exactly what's happening - other than change. You need a separate instrument to indicate the trend of the readings, whether up or down, and over what period of time. That's just WAY to complicated.

I don't need much, but a voltmeter that will not only keep me informed as to the state of my battery, but will also tell me my accessory drive is running - the alternator is turning, as is the power steering pump and on some vehicles, the engine fan, the air conditioner compressor, are turning as well providing an early-warning of incipient failure. Your fuel gauge is important on a car that only carries a smidge over 7 gallons of fuel. High mileage can lull you into inattention to the presence of your local supply of pushwater. An oil pressure gauge will let you know not only that you have sufficient oil supply to the whirly-bits, but that it is consistent (not foaming) and give you an idea of how MUCH pressure is available rather than that there is SOME oil available in the system, long before a trail of blue smoke in the rear view informs you of the same. Your temperature gauge tells you with some precision what's going on down in the engine room. A creep of a few degrees may indicate problems like a water leak or bubbles in the coolant stream. It can indicate a stuck thermostat, and by its analog nature along with that of your oil pressure gauge, provide a reference to the overall health of your power plant at a glance.

There are several panels in the aftermarket that will allow you to display all kinds of geeky things, dwell time, injector pulse width, even time your quarter mile for you. announcing your shift points along the way. That gets to be a case of overkill very quickly and between figuring my best launch RPM, setting my GPS for my destination, my Pandora selection of entertainment, my next gas stop, a handy place to stop for lunch, and reminders for phone calls and appointments to be made today, I'm going to be plenty busy dividing time between my instruments and my windshield.

Well said sir, but I feel I must add that "oil pressure" guages are a lie! There is a oil pressure sensor, but it is an open/closed switch. Add some pressure and it closes the loop, the ecm/pcm sets the guage to a pre-determined spot. Better ones will set the needle low on the guage and make it sweep higher when the RPM increase. That "Guage" is a fancy dummy switch. Caveat: this will not apply to all vehicles, old and fancy expensive one are probably on the exception list

 

[Jambe]

Smitty, that is news to me. Didn't realize that might be the case.

Wouldn't a person be able to replace the sending unit with one that accurately sends the pressure?

 

[Smitty]

Smitty, that is news to me. Didn't realize that might be the case.

Wouldn't a person be able to replace the sending unit with one that accurately sends the pressure?

With enough time, money or effort anything is possible! lol. Electronic wizards can do stuff that will make a guy like me scratch my head and say something like "Huh?".

 

[Kuda]

The instrument panel is the part of the car that will face the guy who laid down the bucks for it 98% of the time he's anywhere near the car. If it's ugly, or worse, poorly designed or minimally useful, it's going to be right there - a thorn in his side for as long as he owns it. Is it a deal breaker? No, but the instrument cluster is a serious aesthetic item for any car as well as being a diagnostic tool and a running reminder that what's going on just forward of your footwell is important and worth monitoring. Psychologically, it's going to be center stage in your visual field, and it's going to have a big role in your perception of the vehicle and will color your enjoyment of it. It's important because of its location. Did you ever buy the cheapest model in a car's line only to be taunted by all those blanked holes in the dash where a whole collection of options you didn't buy stare back at you, mocking your choices (or lack of them)? That's the very description of frustration and incipient buyer's remorse.

Early in my driving career I owned a series of vehicles that were best described as intended for the taxicab market. Yes, they were cheap, but worse were all those little blanks confronting me every time I got in the car. I spent months hunting a factory radio for my '52 Dodge, not so much for the radio itself, but to plug four gaping holes in the dash that were covered by plastic plugs. I spent even more time hunting down a factory clock - not that I needed to know the time, but the plug that covered its space was a bright chromed pot-metal piece that was totally out of place. I eventually found a 1927 Chevy spring-wound clock that would fit - with a little modification, although the "self winding" feature periodically engaged a big 6V solenoid that "wound" the clock about a quarter turn every two or three hours. It sounded like someone dropped a steel 55 gallon oil drum every time it ran the little mainspring down and closed a large pair of contacts . . . KA-CHUNGGGgggggg!! The dashboard would ring for about three seconds afterward. I lived with it, even though it would sneak up and scare me to death every now and then. I'd rather have the random noise than stare at the reminder of another option I didn't buy every time I got behind the wheel.

In the '50's and '60's auto stylists went crazy trying to out-Buck Rogers the competition with zoomy "space age" instrument panels. Most were just odd, many didn't work too well, and some were absolutely unreadable. The Elgin cluster falls into the latter category. It's difficult to read, does not communicate well with the driver, and is a total waste of space in that critical area directly in front of the driver. There has never been an improvement on the old "needles and numbers" of the "steam gauge" instruments that read at a glance, both number, and trend.

It's so much worse when your instruments don't communicate well. A handful of "idiot lights" don't tell you anything about what's happening under the hood either - well other than that light coming on means you need to reach for your wallet . . . something you had no idea was going wrong just reached criticality up there, and it's going to be expensive. Moving needles and stationary numbers communicate directly. You don't need to know that your engine temperature is 229 degrees - unless you know that it means that things are pretty warm up front and bear watching. Rapidly changing numbers don't indicate exactly what's happening - other than change. You need a separate instrument to indicate the trend of the readings, whether up or down, and over what period of time. That's just WAY to complicated.

I don't need much, but a voltmeter that will not only keep me informed as to the state of my battery, but will also tell me my accessory drive is running - the alternator is turning, as is the power steering pump and on some vehicles, the engine fan, the air conditioner compressor, are turning as well providing an early-warning of incipient failure. Your fuel gauge is important on a car that only carries a smidge over 7 gallons of fuel. High mileage can lull you into inattention to the presence of your local supply of pushwater. An oil pressure gauge will let you know not only that you have sufficient oil supply to the whirly-bits, but that it is consistent (not foaming) and give you an idea of how MUCH pressure is available rather than that there is SOME oil available in the system, long before a trail of blue smoke in the rear view informs you of the same. Your temperature gauge tells you with some precision what's going on down in the engine room. A creep of a few degrees may indicate problems like a water leak or bubbles in the coolant stream. It can indicate a stuck thermostat, and by its analog nature along with that of your oil pressure gauge, provide a reference to the overall health of your power plant at a glance.

There are several panels in the aftermarket that will allow you to display all kinds of geeky things, dwell time, injector pulse width, even time your quarter mile for you. announcing your shift points along the way. That gets to be a case of overkill very quickly and between figuring my best launch RPM, setting my GPS for my destination, my Pandora selection of entertainment, my next gas stop, a handy place to stop for lunch, and reminders for phone calls and appointments to be made today, I'm going to be plenty busy dividing time between my instruments and my windshield.

Well said....

 

[Elio Amazed]

Smitty, that is news to me. Didn't realize that might be the case.

Wouldn't a person be able to replace the sending unit with one that accurately sends the pressure?

Yes. True oil pressure gauges are available at any parts store at a reasonable cost.
The person that owned my last malibu before me installed one and mounted it just below the dash on the left.