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Elio And Gas Prices

At what price would you not but an Elio?

  • $2.75

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • $2.25

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    74
  • Poll closed .

Lil4X

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I agree, if we see a sudden and sustained spike in the cost of gas, the Elio will become a much more desirable product. As if it isn't already. But I don't really look for that spike to happen for several reasons:

Our global reserves are increasing as we are finding more oil. "Peak oil", like "global warming" was largely a popular boogeyman promoted by the green lobby - by those with no background in geology, reservoir engineering, production or refining. Peak oil theory was promoted in 1956 by Marion King Hubbert, a prominent Shell Oil geologist who estimated global oil reserves would peak by the mid '60's and assume a declining output from that point onward. Like those who constantly revise the date of the apocalypse, many armchair scientists kept predicting the day that the world's wells would start sucking air and the zombie apocalypse would be upon us. There are two problems with Hubbert's theory we've discovered over the past 30 to 50 years.
  1. Oil is a fungible commodity, like gold, wheat, pork bellies and orange juice - it's freely traded on the global market. It responds to supply and demand like any other commodity. We won't just run out one day, under conventional economic theory it will just keep increasing in cost. Earth's last few barrels will obviously be worth a LOT of money. But it doesn't look like that's going to happen.
  2. Oil is a renewable resource; it's beginning to look like a handful of Russian scientists were right twenty years ago when they proposed that oil is NOT the product of dead dinosaurs or ancient sea plankton now rotting miles beneath the earth's surface. One of the areas of heaviest investigation is that hydrocarbons are being formed in the earth's mantle and slowly rise and condense as they migrate toward the surface over thousands of years. Well if it's renewable, at what rate is it being renewed? Will we run out of hydrocarbon, then have to sit and wait a few thousand years for the reservoirs to re-fill? That part isn't completely clear, but it could lead to more responsible ways of using what we have and recycling what we can.
Finally, the most glaring error in Hubbert's theory is the rise of technology. I heard a prominent Texas wildcatter say at an industry meeting thirty years ago that "all the cheap oil's been found". Today we have to go to the deep waters of the outer continental shelf, to the arctic ice caps, and to jungles and deserts to find "new" oil, but there is a huge reserve of oil right under our feet - we just have to develop the technology to get to it and produce it economically.

For well over sixty years there has been a formation called the "Austin Chalk" that curls from South Texas up through Louisiana, to emerge at the coast near Mississippi. This geological formation has been the ruin of hundreds of oil speculators since the '30's, as it seems to show rich strata of oil-bearing rock. Sadly, most of the investors in this play over the years have been doctors and lawyers, rather than geologists.

A quick lesson in basic petroleum geology here: Oil and other hydrocarbons like natural gas exist in small pore spaces within rock - like the holes in a sponge. Certainly oil is there, and conventional means of testing will indicate its presence, even its flow rate. We say that the formation rock has "porosity", meaning that it is porous. The other part of that evaluation is that the pore spaces within the rock must connect with one another. Hydrocarbon must be able to flow through the rock to reach the borehole for it to be extracted. This "permeability" of the reservoir rock is extremely important - and the Austin Chalk doesn't have much of it. One of the greatest repeating scams in the oil business was the Chalk. A wildcatter would drill into an oil-bearing formation, flow the well for a day or two and SELL the well to a group of speculators. About a week after the wildcatter moved his rig off the location, the well would dry up and the investors were now the proud owners of a two-mile dry posthole. Hydrocarbon trapped in individual pores isn't of much use because it's potential is extremely limited, so we have to reach and break down the individual pore spaces.

Technology comes to the rescue. In 1984 on a test well near Vanderbilt, TX, Mobil R&D drilled the world's first horizontal well. They drilled down into some well known formations, then using a combination of directional and top drive drilling techniques, turned the borehole 92° off vertical and proceeded to drill along a narrow formation, correcting the angle as they went. Rather than try to produce a trickle of oil from a two-foot thick formation, by drilling along it, they could draw from several hundred feet of producing zone. Well that solved the thin-bed problem, and some of the permeability problem, but how could they reach back into the formation to break open those pore spaces?

Hydraulic fracturing (known as "fracking" to the ignorant press) is an old technique that has been producing oil in Western Oklahoma and other oil-rich areas where "tight" formations are reluctant to give up hydrocarbon. When the well is completed and steel casing and liners run in the hole, they are cemented back to the borehole very tightly to control communication with the strata above. Once pressure-tested, the well is perforated by lowering small shaped charges down to the production zone and the charges fired, cutting neat holes in the casing (and or tubing) wall and a foot or a few feet back into the formation. At this point the well should begin to flow as the fluid-filled casing begins to take hydrocarbon, and surface pressure increases. Normally, the well will be flowed for a few days to a tank battery or a flare stack to prove the well before any permanent work is begun. If the well is not flowing freely at this point, a decision is made, based on reservoir studies to bring in a fracturing unit.

It may be a single pump truck, or a whole fleet of trucks with 1200hp aircraft engines (more recently turbojet engines) and large triplex pumps on their beds. These are connected to tubing run in the well and secured by a packer just above the perforated interval. Pressuring up the formation to several thousand psi with flow rates up to over 400 barrels per minute requires a lot of horsepower - and it's fairly common in deep, tight formations like those in Western Oklahoma. Under this kind of pressure, the formation rock cracks, and tiny channels reach far back into the formation from the wellbore. Sand injected into the frac fluid travels along these cracks to keep them propped open when the pressure's released. The result is a network of fine channels that reach back into the formation to artificially create the "permeability" that the formation lacks.

A word about the bad press these "frac jobs" are getting amongst the green contingent. First, natural oil seeps from Pennsylvania to the Santa Barbara Channel have furnished native peoples with tar and petroleum generally used in folk medicine for well over two millennia. Occasionally petroleum will leak out of the ground from very shallow formations whether we drill for it or not.

Today's producible volumes of hydrocarbon don't come from shallow formations anywhere near our water supplies, but generally from eight to fourteen thousand feet down - and some even deeper. Natural gas is normally found in economic quantities well below this horizon, and far below a number of "hard streaks" or shale caps that seal it off from groundwater that's normally only a couple hundred feet below the surface. We have long had strict procedures, even laws that require that drilling for hydrocarbon be isolated from our water table, and our deep aquifers, and although accidents can happen, there are means available to isolate and limit the damage very quickly. If you will note most of the pollution and destruction of wildlife habitat long bemoaned by the environmentalists never came to pass. Caribou herds are growing - cows finding the warmth of a few overhead passages of the Trans-Alaska line to be comforting in winter, fishing has improved in the Gulf of Mexico as sea life has discovered production platforms to be ready-made reefs on which they can make a home. Energy production is not at odds with our environment, quite the opposite in fact.

Along with better recovery technologies, we've vastly improved the seismic technology, both in data recovery and computer processing that allows us to look into deeper horizons, even under existing reservoirs to see much larger potential reservoirs yet to be drilled. Slowly, our hydrocarbon infrastructure, that is the pipelines, supertankers, and oil ports are growing - as long as we maintain some semblance of an energy policy here at home.

Now, how will an energy shortage affect the sales of Elio? First, I don't think that - other than seasonal adjustments - the price of oil in constant dollars is going to vary a whole lot over the next generation. With adjustments for inflation, we're paying only a few cents more for motor gasoline than we did in the early '50's. Yes, there have been a few short-term spikes, but because we are now producing more hydrocarbon here at home than ever before, we are making inroads on establishing a more solid, more diversified energy base. Elio is going to play a part in that as well. Once the vehicle is established with a gasoline engine, it's not a large step to diesel, natural gas, or even electric power - when the retail infrastructure becomes available to support it.

At the same time, we're using less motor gasoline, thanks to conservation, more efficient automobiles, and public concern. Elio will be a big part of that when our commuters are getting three times the mileage they are getting from a conventional 4-passenger sedan. That's not only a savings for our own budgets, but one for the nation as well. :)
 
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Dustoff

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Lil4X,
Thank you for the piece on available oil and how we go about getting it.
I agree that we have more oil than we can use right now. The challenge is getting it.
In the seventies I was involved with some studies in Alaska with the Department of The Interior.
The geologists I worked with told me that Alaska has many years worth of oil locked up in parks and wilderness areas and to be looked at as oil in the bank for future use.
I spent 3 weeks with NOAA doing research in the Bering Sea, which has great deposits of oil but will be very difficult to get because of the winter ice.
The sea floor is only 60 to 200 feet deep but when the ice flows drift they would rip up a conventional drilling platform. A couple of interesting drilling platforms proposed were solid concrete, concaved sided rigs, attached to the bottom but prohibitively expensive and my favorite, dredging up sand to build islands and then the radial and horizontal drilling you mentioned. Of course the submarine drilling platform.
I'm sure more members have experience in this area as well. Lets hear from you.:)
 
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Lil4X

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As I recall Shell built at least one "gravel island" up there - we sold a lot of equipment for it. Similar islands were constructed in Long Beach harbor (Grissom, While, and Chafee) that were basically offshore platforms with nice landscaping. They didn't have to deal with pack ice, but they might be rammed by a errant sportfisherman.
 

Jim H

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As I recall Shell built at least one "gravel island" up there - we sold a lot of equipment for it. Similar islands were constructed in Long Beach harbor (Grissom, While, and Chafee) that were basically offshore platforms with nice landscaping. They didn't have to deal with pack ice, but they might be rammed by a errant sportfisherman.
Obviously, you have cruised off the Santa Barbara shore and the Channel Islands. Having cruised between San Francisco and San Diego several times I can tell you that area can be challenging, especially when the weather is good. The oil platforms are great navigational aids.
 

LGilbert

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Gas price has nothing to do with anything. The current $4.00/gal price is being accepted by the public without a wince. Every time the gas goes up, it vaguely stimulates more hybrid sales. Then the public gets used to the new level and sales drop. Besides, with the exception of brontosaurus SUVs (Stupendously Unreasonable Vehicles), the mileage of the average car is rising yearly. A friend's basic 4 cylinder Accord got over 40 mpg on a recent trip. The real losers are the poor who can only afford to buy used, inefficient SUVs as their depreciation is horrendous making them cheaper to buy in good condition, but a serious economic drag to own.

The Elio is not in competition with these cars as it presents a new concept in design and philosophy, a different driving experience, and is aimed at a different user market. That is more of a driving force than mere gas mileage and that marketing will break or make the company.
 

Lil4X

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With few exceptions, buying a hybrid or a diesel to save money is not really effective. The premium you pay for the hybrid version or the diesel package over the gasoline version won't pay out until somewhere four or five years later - at which time the car will have depreciated and many people trade their cars anyway. The Elio, on the other hand has the potential to pay out the cost of the entire car in about 3-4 years, depending on your commute. Now that's a significant savings that makes the Elio an economic no-brainer.
 

Snick

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With few exceptions, buying a hybrid or a diesel to save money is not really effective. The premium you pay for the hybrid version or the diesel package over the gasoline version won't pay out until somewhere four or five years later - at which time the car will have depreciated and many people trade their cars anyway. The Elio, on the other hand has the potential to pay out the cost of the entire car in about 3-4 years, depending on your commute. Now that's a significant savings that makes the Elio an economic no-brainer.

Unless you roll more than 20,000 miles a year...we worked the complex breakdown math for this at forums.tdiclub.com, and the current generation of tdi works out to some absurdly large commute mileage to hit break even.

You buy a diesel car for the torque and fun. You buy a diesel truck for the hauling torque. You buy the hybrid because you're a complete dork with no sense of 5th grade math.
 

LGilbert

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Unless you roll more than 20,000 miles a year...we worked the complex breakdown math for this at forums.tdiclub.com, and the current generation of tdi works out to some absurdly large commute mileage to hit break even.

You buy a diesel car for the torque and fun. You buy a diesel truck for the hauling torque. You buy the hybrid because you're a complete dork with no sense of 5th grade math.

It's of no value to wholesale condemn people for hybrid purchases through manipulated numbers. The 'fifth grade math', in reality, is simply cost per mile of ownership, and has absolutely nothing to do with the propulsion configuration. For example, a gigantic Lexus SUV/hybrid still gets pathetic mileage compared to a Honda Accord, 4 cyl. that can get close to 40 mpg with no hybrid, and has a high depreciation. A Prius hybrid is less expensive than the average cost for the top selling sedans. It gets about 46 mpg average (standard Prius) compared to, maybe, 26 for the average sedan, and has low depreciation. It would be a no brainer in that buying comparison. Higher mileage equates to lower atmospheric emissions/mile, again, regardless of propulsion method.

"Fifth grade math" is obviously being ignored for the diesel consideration, car or truck, but applied arbitrarily elsewhere in the original statement. Of course, if you compute the average break even point for the increased mileage of a more expensive diesel, it is difficult to justify the expense as an investment advantage. If you compare the Prius with an econo-box with reasonable mileage, you will get the same results. But, if you consider choosing an amenities price point, then the Prius wins hands down in cost of operation over time compared to comparably equipped models, both in term of daily cash flow (gas and maintenance) and in overall cost of operation that includes depreciation (low on the Prius). The most pathetic misappropriation and wasteful investment is the average SUV with low mileage and high depreciation.

Thirdly, one must consider the arena use. The 'highway' mileage value has minimal meaning as most American driving is short commutes with a high percentage of stop/go moments, so the 'city' mileage is most useful in calculating economic impact relative to operation. The Prius (our hybrid example) get 46+ MPG in the city, almost twice that of the average American car and, perhaps 150% more than an SUV with its inefficient design. The electric motor gets 100% of its torque at zero RPM and regenerate energy upon braking, making it ideal for city driving. Electric motors have no peer when it comes to torque. The only negative to electric propulsion is the development of a charging infrastructure (just the proliferation of filling stations allowed cross country travel starting in the 1920's) and the cost of batteries. The infrastructure will come and new, higher density batteries are about to revolutionize automobile. Until that time, hybrids are the extended mileage alternative. Race cars now use hybrid motors (see F1 race cars and the Porsche racers) to dramatically extend mileage, recycle power normally lost during operation, and provide tremendous acceleration boosts. Last year's F1 cars without the new hybrid engines are not competitive either in performance or efficiency.
 

HHH

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I agree, if we see a sudden and sustained spike in the cost of gas, the Elio will become a much more desirable product. As if it isn't already. But I don't really look for that spike to happen for several reasons

Don't ignore geopolitical considerations. Although OPEC doesn't have the stranglehold on oil supply that it once did, let's not forget the quadrupling of the price of oil they initiated in 1973. A new wrinkle from the Middle East or Russia could have an impact.

Today's producible volumes of hydrocarbon don't come from shallow formations anywhere near our water supplies, but generally from eight to fourteen thousand feet down - and some even deeper.

As a result, the costs for production are far greater than they were in the past. The volume of recoverable oil using these technologies is what's keeping the prices in check.

Now, how will an energy shortage affect the sales of Elio? First, I don't think that - other than seasonal adjustments - the price of oil in constant dollars is going to vary a whole lot over the next generation. With adjustments for inflation, we're paying only a few cents more for motor gasoline than we did in the early '50's.

As for how an energy shortage will affect Elio sales? Well, related to the price point survey that initiated this thread, I recall Lee Iaccoca pleading with Congress decades ago to raise gasoline taxes so that the sales price would be $3.00 a gallon or higher. He said that without that, they couldn't convince the public to buy fuel efficient cars. I believe that the market does respond to price increases in the short term, then adapts and goes back to wasteful ways. But as a commuter or second vehicle, Elio demand could remain constant.

When I started driving, gasoline was 33.9 cents a gallon. Production costs alone far exceed that now. I don't believe that inflation (the relative price level) has increased eleven-fold in the past 45 years, let alone from the early '50's.

At the same time, we're using less motor gasoline, thanks to conservation, more efficient automobiles, and public concern. Elio will be a big part of that when our commuters are getting three times the mileage they are getting from a conventional 4-passenger sedan. That's not only a savings for our own budgets, but one for the nation as well. :)

Certainly we as consumers benefit from each of these. Looking globally, however, it is a different story. I remember seeing pictures of 1000's of Chinese commuters on bicycles when I was in elementary school. At the time I recall wondering, "What will happen when they all start driving cars?" That reality is upon us, both in China, India and elsewhere. It's been said by better minds than mine that future generations, recycling used oil routinely as lubricants, asphalt, yard furniture and decking, etc. will look at our one use burning of oil as incredibly wasteful and short-sighted.

As a former participant in the oil and gas services sector, I appreciated your providing the overview of the extraction process for our readers.
 
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