Doubts...to Buy Or Not To Buy...

[Debbie Bruce]

The "dashboard photo" is just a computer rendering, not a photograph of an actual Elio. Giveaways include sharp focus throughout - objects in foreground are equally sharp as those in the distance. Another is the lack of cast shadows and limited gradation of the dash. Finally, that wheel is about two years old - the current version seems borrowed from a Toyota. PhotoShop, Gimp, and even some CAD software are powerful tools, but like any tool, they are only as effective as the person wielding it and the time they have to invest in it. I don't think that illustration was ever intended to be photo-realistic, but a CAD drawing with surfaces and textures added with "global" lighting to point up the driver's perspective of the SB instrument panel. For that, it serves the purpose well.

As far as the gaps between engineering, production, and marketing, I can speak from small amount of experience to that. There is a whole series of steps between a cocktail napkin sketch and a prototype. Then there are often dozens - if not hundreds of changes that have to be made to make the design workable. Ditto something that can be manufactured in volume efficiently and at minimal cost. Then comes reliability testing and a whole new set of changes to arrive at a product that, once released for public sale, will perform well day after day, without continuing warranty problems. We can name a large number of automobiles produced overseas for the US market - even many that were engineered and manufactured in America, that were total mechanical failures. Yugo and Vega come to mind - and they came with the engineering and manufacturing expertise of Fiat and Chevrolet - two of the largest, most experienced automakers in the world. Is it any wonder EM is taking baby steps? I think not.

I spent many years working with companies bringing new products - even new technologies to market; I even headed a few projects myself, and I can assure you it's a very fluid process. One of my engineers used the old Southern expression, "It's like trying to nail Jell-O to a stump." Well, yeah, like that. You start with a set of design goals you hope to be able to carry through to production, but often a conflict of these demands dictates you make basic changes. Those changes will have to appear as changes in goals (the fast and cheap way), or changes in the product (the slow and expensive way). A couple of truisms eventually arise to bite you hard: First, is that changes do not exist in a vacuum - you make one small change and you have to make two to twenty other changes to accommodate it. There's a huge ripple effect here as the solution to one concern becomes a cascade of changes. A larger engine will require a more robust transmission, probably larger half-shafts and CV joints to survive the higher torque of the engine. Meanwhile the engine mounts may have to be changed to accept the larger block, we might even have to spread the frame rails to accept that block too. This will change the suspension pick-up points, thus the geometry, and require some tweaks to the wishbones. We haven't even considered larger brakes, trimmed up brake proportioning valves to accommodate the heavier nose, or any required changes to the front clip and hood to fit all this under.

There is an old adage in business that goes, "Do you want it cheap, fast, or good? . . . pick 2." If you want a good, reliable vehicle that is engineered to Paul Elio's lofty goals of mileage, cost, safety, and domestic content, it will take time. There are always those who will complain that the final product won't corner like an F1 car, won't return 12-second timeslips, or won't accommodate a family of six, but I would suggest they are looking at the wrong car in an Elio. Remember, that the Elio is a "scratch" design, incorporating a large number of well-proven parts . . . that have never had to work together before. That's a very tall order.

As far as marketing is concerned, that aspect of the company has experienced a number of running changes just as the design has. The first three prototypes were rolled out as "proof of concept", from which the final design could be developed. I don't recall any of these being touted as THE final product, but a work in progress. I used to have to have to sell a product that didn't exist to some pretty crusty old customers who had nothing but our company's reputation for success in engineering to bank on. One of these old guys, the CEO of his Fortune 500 company, eyed me and rumbled, "Well, your drawings appear to work about as well as your competitor's." That was Friday. Sunday morning I was on a plane for Abu Dhabi with 220 pounds of camera gear I had to smuggle in to document our second prototype on test in the Arabian Gulf. Fast-forward three weeks and I'm back in the CEO's office with a 12-minute presentation video documenting the performance of the product halfway around the world. He ordered two. Two months later, he ordered three more. In two years he bought eighteen. At a sale price of just under $1 million each, and delivery stretched out six to eight months in the future, it was a leap of faith that would put an Olympic long-jumper to shame.

Not all of us "future Elio owners" want to take that kind of chance. What we are seeing is the slow progression of a product from concept to reality and the running changes that are encountered along the way. You and I are sitting at ringside viewing the entire process - sometimes its boring, sometimes it's disappointing, but we're learning valuable lessons that will pay off in the end. Ford or GM takes a minimum of two to three years to do a "clean sheet of paper" design - and they have millions - if not billions of dollars to throw into the project, and they do all but the last few months of it behind the scenes. Ford's Mustang was basically a re-bodied Falcon, and although a number of design criteria fell by the wayside during development, the reason it became a classic was not engineering innovation, not manufacturing efficiency, but styling. It would take years to put a Mustang on the market that had the sellar performance its appearance promised. Sure there were the early Shelby's, but they were literally hand-rebuilds of the basic design. Pushing 250 vehicles per day out the door for a fledgling automaker like EM, building a whole new set of design priorities into a finished vehicle that will stand up to everyday commuting is an absolutely monumental task. You and I are watching the birth of a new product from the inside, experiencing the setbacks, the disappointments, and the triumphs as no ordinary auto buyer ever will.

Hang in there and try to be patient. Every day that delivery slips is a day closer to a product you can be proud of.

Great points ! Personally I think a prototype should be displayed in shows for futuristic concepts. Not taken to the street. Many drive to these events only to be told this will change, tires will be different, We are still working on that, this will not be the real what-u ma-call it etc, but get on your laptop, put up a grand, you will love it when you receive it in November 2014, 15 or 16 when we get the bucks to manufacture it. Make a few functional ones , invite test from Car n Driver type magazines. People are walking away with nothing once viewing. We are not hungry to see 250 units a day coming out of the pant door at this time only one or two of the running real deal.

 

[Lil4X]

Just wondering if you write little comments to others or read responses to post before you decide who is the attacker ..In many post by those who did not single anyone out received nut case remarks and name calling replies. I've noticed "goofyone likes this" at the bottom of several. Is it those who share your opinion getting a pass on language and personal attacks. I can not think of one post from anyone , any opinion that I called somone stupid or worse. However when I received them to mine I fired back. Seems you have the magic erasser enabling you to change, insert or delte any post to produce fault in person of your choice.

Perhaps you're laboring under a misunderstanding of the meaning of a moderated forum. If you look a "goofy's" avatar, you'll note the word "moderator". That's a job description, and it's not an easy one. I've had to perform that service myself for the past ten years on another automotive forum, and it's a massive task, and usually a thankless one. It is a moderator's task to "clean up" offensive language, inform and admonish violators of our basic rules of conduct, and when necessary, remove members from a discussion for the good of the whole.

Let's back up and think about why we're all here. First, an enthusiast site strives to be an open discussion, but at the same time it has to be family-friendly, it has to be a convivial place for all to share information, questions, speculation, and rumors without flame wars or personal attacks. We want to be attractive to new members, to have them engage in the discussion, and build the forum with a regard to the entertainment and informative content for all. We probably wouldn't speak to someone we barely know so rudely in a social situation, but many "keyboard warriors" feel compelled to populate a persona they wouldn't otherwise display from the anonymity of a garret room. The idea here is not to feed our egos, but to engage in a discussion, occasionally a debate, to share information, experience, and perspectives on a variety of product-related issues. On the other hand, name-calling and cyberbullying tends to create more of the same, quickly reducing a forum to a place NOBODY wants to visit.

If you have problems with that, that's fine. Perhaps your needs would be better met elsewhere on another forum. I would encourage anyone posting here (or on any forum, for that matter) to take a moment and read over your submission before hitting that "Post Reply" button. A couple of guidelines here: "Is it true?", "Is it FAIR?", "Does it represent ME well and appear thoughtful and credible?". Finally ask yourself, "How does this contribute to the Elio community?".

If you ever saw the movie, "The Emperor's Club", you may remember the professor's outburst: "Aristophanes once wrote, roughly translated; 'Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but STUPID lasts forever.'" That statement has had ME pushing the "delete" key many times on re-reading one of my own as-yet unpublished posts.

 

[Ty]

Perhaps you're laboring under a misunderstanding of the meaning of a moderated forum. If you look a "goofy's" avatar, you'll note the word "moderator". That's a job description, and it's not an easy one. I've had to perform that service myself for the past ten years on another automotive forum, and it's a massive task, and usually a thankless one. It is a moderator's task to "clean up" offensive language, inform and admonish violators of our basic rules of conduct, and when necessary, remove members from a discussion for the good of the whole.

Let's back up and think about why we're all here. First, an enthusiast site strives to be an open discussion, but at the same time it has to be family-friendly, it has to be a convivial place for all to share information, questions, speculation, and rumors without flame wars or personal attacks. We want to be attractive to new members, to have them engage in the discussion, and build the forum with a regard to the entertainment and informative content for all. We probably wouldn't speak to someone we barely know so rudely in a social situation, but many "keyboard warriors" feel compelled to populate a persona they wouldn't otherwise display from the anonymity of a garret room. The idea here is not to feed our egos, but to engage in a discussion, occasionally a debate, to share information, experience, and perspectives on a variety of product-related issues. On the other hand, name-calling and cyberbullying tends to create more of the same, quickly reducing a forum to a place NOBODY wants to visit.

If you have problems with that, that's fine. Perhaps your needs would be better met elsewhere on another forum. I would encourage anyone posting here (or on any forum, for that matter) to take a moment and read over your submission before hitting that "Post Reply" button. A couple of guidelines here: "Is it true?", "Is it FAIR?", "Does it represent ME well and appear thoughtful and credible?". Finally ask yourself, "How does this contribute to the Elio community?".

If you ever saw the movie, "The Emperor's Club", you may remember the professor's outburst: "Aristophanes once wrote, roughly translated; 'Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but STUPID lasts forever.'" That statement has had ME pushing the "delete" key many times on re-reading one of my own as-yet unpublished posts.

I concur with your assessment. This forum is for people interested in Elio. Spirited debate is fine but this isn't the place to demean or even try to convince someone they've made a mistake by investing in an Elio... that ship has sailed...

 

[Ty]

I have noticed the age distribution on here but I agree with you and do not believe this is a true example of who will buy the Elio when it is available at retail. I believe the fact that reservations holders tend to be older is more likely a function of the older demographic being more likely to have the disposable income and willingness to invest it in this vehicle at this point in its development cycle as it is not a sure thing. I would bet this vehicle would appeal to a wide range of people however if you are struggling for money and want a cheap vehicle you definitely will not be taking a chance on this at this point. I have told many of my friends who are traditional 30 something suburban commuters with families and while the love the idea of an extremely fuel efficient and inexpensive commuter vehicle they also do not see any reason to put money down on a concept which may or may not happen.

True. PLUS, when we go all in at $1,000, all we are really doing is getting our cars a couple of months early with a $500 discount... Well, that AND supporting Elio by showing (parts suppliers, backers, etc) that there is a market for the Elio. Most people would probably rather wait and see. I debated doing that because we are talking about $500 - who cares? But, after thinking about it, I decided to not only support Elio but also show any other manufacturers out there that there is an audience. If Elio goes under, at least Ford/Chevy/etc. will see that there were 17,000+ people who want a no-frills, gas miser so bad that they were willing to put money down in the mere hopes that the vehicle would be produced... It may just be enough to tip a committe or engineering group more towards fuel efficiency at the expense of power. And that, could be very important.

 

[Lil4X]

I think the Elio's demographic will turn out to be a good bit older than the standard 18-32 yr-old that most of the market seeks. First the Elio looks odd. Younger buyers say they want distinction, but are far more comfortable following a trend. They don't want to look odd, but stylish. OTOH, we see older buyers, now probably empty-nesters, late in their working careers or perhaps on a fixed income, now looking at the economic realities they face. They need reliable, low-cost transportation that incorporates most of the technology and safety available in a new car. Buying used often invites unexpected and unbudgeted expenses, so a new car with a new car warranty is a priority. Low fuel and maintenance costs are up there too on the list of "must haves". There might be an opportunity here, now with Pep Boys on board, for a 3-year all-inclusive service policy that first appeared among the luxury marques and is now filtering down to those of us in a more - uh, let's say, conservative economic lifestyle.

 

[Ty]

I think the Elio's demographic will turn out to be a good bit older than the standard 18-32 yr-old that most of the market seeks. First the Elio looks odd. Younger buyers say they want distinction, but are far more comfortable following a trend. They don't want to look odd, but stylish. OTOH, we see older buyers, now probably empty-nesters, late in their working careers or perhaps on a fixed income, now looking at the economic realities they face. They need reliable, low-cost transportation that incorporates most of the technology and safety available in a new car. Buying used often invites unexpected and unbudgeted expenses, so a new car with a new car warranty is a priority. Low fuel and maintenance costs are up there too on the list of "must haves". There might be an opportunity here, now with Pep Boys on board, for a 3-year all-inclusive service policy that first appeared among the luxury marques and is now filtering down to those of us in a more - uh, let's say, conservative economic lifestyle.

Nobody can predict trends with much success... That Nissan Cube and all those xB, Xa boxes... who knew the young set would like those? It could be that an Elio with a trick paint job or wrap could be the next big thing. Pure speculation, of course.

 

[Lil4X]

It's odd that most of the folks I see driving around in a Kia Soul are older, rather than younger. Maybe it's style or price (those things are almost the price of a CAR) - but despite the attempts to be trendy in the ads, I think it's the cute hamsters . . . .

 

[Debbie Bruce]

Perhaps you're laboring under a misunderstanding of the meaning of a moderated forum. If you look a "goofy's" avatar, you'll note the word "moderator". That's a job description, and it's not an easy one. I've had to perform that service myself for the past ten years on another automotive forum, and it's a massive task, and usually a thankless one. It is a moderator's task to "clean up" offensive language, inform and admonish violators of our basic rules of conduct, and when necessary, remove members from a discussion for the good of the whole.

Let's back up and think about why we're all here. First, an enthusiast site strives to be an open discussion, but at the same time it has to be family-friendly, it has to be a convivial place for all to share information, questions, speculation, and rumors without flame wars or personal attacks. We want to be attractive to new members, to have them engage in the discussion, and build the forum with a regard to the entertainment and informative content for all. We probably wouldn't speak to someone we barely know so rudely in a social situation, but many "keyboard warriors" feel compelled to populate a persona they wouldn't otherwise display from the anonymity of a garret room. The idea here is not to feed our egos, but to engage in a discussion, occasionally a debate, to share information, experience, and perspectives on a variety of product-related issues. On the other hand, name-calling and cyberbullying tends to create more of the same, quickly reducing a forum to a place NOBODY wants to visit.

If you have problems with that, that's fine. Perhaps your needs would be better met elsewhere on another forum. I would encourage anyone posting here (or on any forum, for that matter) to take a moment and read over your submission before hitting that "Post Reply" button. A couple of guidelines here: "Is it true?", "Is it FAIR?", "Does it represent ME well and appear thoughtful and credible?". Finally ask yourself, "How does this contribute to the Elio community?".

If you ever saw the movie, "The Emperor's Club", you may remember the professor's outburst: "Aristophanes once wrote, roughly translated; 'Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but STUPID lasts forever.'" That statement has had ME pushing the "delete" key many times on re-reading one of my own as-yet unpublished posts.

It seems you have just sent goofyone one a long written resume. Are you asking me if I have a problem with cyberbullying or telling me I am a bully? Are you suggesting that someone leave a site you did not create or own?. I did not see your beloved Emperor movie however since you believe having moderator experience is qualification to fix what you see as a problem based on intelligence acquired from a movie, changing the channel could be a good choice for you.

 

[Lil4X]

Uh . . . Q.E.D. I think the point was just proven.

 

[Tomg3rd]

Uh . . . Q.E.D. I think the point was just proven.

Ok Are you and Debbie married or what?? haha...