Doubts...to Buy Or Not To Buy...

[Brian1362]

Ok, I have a suggestion to make for many of you. Go to paul elios presentation to Pontiac Michigan and read what he has to say in his presentation. A lot of good information about how he sees the automotive business, especially the cost verses retail pricing. I believe the elio is going to happen but time will tell. The real problem is the cost of the Elio after all is said and done. In 2010, the elio was $5995..in 4 years it has jumped to $6800, $800 more. EM admits to being $300 short which would make it $7100 now and who know what it will be in late 2015. EM is still advertising $6800 and has made no attempt to add plus options, destination and preparation fees. . The good people who are all in, in their mind, are thinking $6800 minus their $500 discount and their $1000 down payment...is $5300 for a elio are going to be very, very surprised when that number is closer to $8500 -$500 and then -$1000 which is $7000+ for a basic elio..plus their local fees. (est. $400). Those folks who put the $100 refundable and the $100 non refundable are going to also have to make the decision do I stay in or get out. Those folks are looking at $8350 plus the local fees.. If they bail, then EM may have real problem on their hands. If they order a automatic it could be $800 or so more.
Some will call it a typical "bait and switch" but the delays and normal cost increases have put EM in this situation. BTW, When the elio finally does make production those salespeople who are hired will be probably be trained by a 15 year car salesman and finance manager who is the national sale manager, named Jerome who knows every trick in the book on how to make money selling vehicles, after all, that is the bottom line, making EM money..isn't it.? Also, the category of autocyle will carry a different insurance cost, not a motorcycle and not a car, probably some where in between. None of this is meant to bad mouth EM, far from it, it is just to present the reality of what could happen when the final figures are released, I'm just trying to put it in perspective..!

Umm, I would chalk some of that up to inflation, in general. I am going by what you could buy for a dollar last year isn't the same as what you can buy for a dollar this year. My 2 cents, adjusted for inflation, of course.

 

[BlioKart]

Debbie Bruce: Where do you see Elio shaped vehicles? I have looked everywhere and none have any Elio like properties. Looking over the Satellite overview its clear they are old images if you zoom all the way in they have year stamps of 2012 . The street view is stamped 2014. Technosports is in the red box. And the red arrow I believe is also a Technosports building as it has the same logo on the windows as the building in the red box but I could be wrong.

 

[outsydthebox]

Debbie Bruce: Where do you see Elio shaped vehicles? I have looked everywhere and none have any Elio like properties. Looking over the Satellite overview its clear they are old images if you zoom all the way in they have year stamps of 2012 . The street view is stamped 2014. Technosports is in the red box. And the red arrow I believe is also a Technosports building as it has the same logo on the windows as the building in the red box but I could be wrong.

Interesting observation. So If the 2nd building IS also theirs, That would nearly double the square footage... from 400 to 800sq ft.?...oops, I mean from 8,000 to 16,000sq ft.?

 

[Debbie Bruce]

What if Elio would stop taking a prototype around the country telling people this is what it may look like but with bigger wheels etc.
What if they waited until they had an exact body , interior and showing two driveabble models, one standard shift and one Automatic? Most of us agreed it would not have to have the actual production motor installed since the horse power and size will be similar to the Geo motor they use now.
What if they would let people test drive both standard and auto and ACCEPT CHECKS OR CREDIT CARD DOWNPAYMENTS FOR ORDERS ON THE SPOT. My uncle, ( I know how much you love to hear me speak of M ) mentioned there were probably 50 people standing in line, some for over 2 hours getting sun burned for a chance to sit in the p4 at OKC. We all agreed it would be a better way to market even if Elio had to go into seclusion for a month or two.We also agreed they should have only let the tv satation reporters drive the final design.
What if Elio would just plain advertise they need a given amount of orders to get the autocycle into production. My group believes that there must be someone whom as agreed to back Elio if they can show ??? units are reserved. We also believe the Landlord fellow who held writing the 7 1/2 million dollar check was waiting for a certain number of reservations before final commitment. We also believe Elio has figured out an average of reservations and is predicting the latest production date delay to tied to it's reaching that number.
What if you people would stop jumping down the peoples throat who don't feel Paul Elio is not the right person to market his 3 wheeler and hope the board members will either change status quo or bring in a true fund raiser with auto experience not being a friggin 15 year car salesman or worse someone who was a dealer. Elio can't bring change to the auto industry if it brings the old school lot lizzards in for advice? We have already seen their bs double talk about fuel card financing and some have heard them telling people at motel parking lot shows telling people Elio is goning to do this and next month.
What if, this is my opinion not my study groups, if the red Elio body my uncle saw being polished in the Detroit area was the one in this dasboard photo? Could it be the design team has kept under wrap to to testing and modifications as needed? I don't know if it's a drawing , or an actual mock up dash however it is red and uncle M has no reason to lie to me .The photo is 2 years old. He does not hate the Elio, he hates the Elio marketing approach and thinks Paul is an idiot with one good idea.
What if this is the actual dash ? I don't see anything wrong with it. At this point we believe there is still a 30% chance this vehicle will go in to production, Many of us here are betting a thousand bucks on it.

 

[Debbie Bruce]

Interesting observation. So If the 2nd building IS also theirs, That would nearly double the square footage... from 400 to 800sq ft.?...oops, I mean from 8,000 to 16,000sq ft.?

Don't know, was not there. Maybe you should go, take measurements , report back.

 

[goofyone]

You are entitled to your opinions but keep in mind it is always easier to armchair quarterback and react to what you observe from the sidelines without having access to all the information than it is to be in the middle of the action and deal with the actual issues as they happen in real time.

The deal with IRG and Stuart Lichter, the landlord as you call him, has actually been fairly out in the open. That deal has nothing to do with the reservation numbers and instead control of the plant site. We have known since last year that IRG was supposed to invest the $7.5 million after they had control of the plant. What we now know is that due to outside interference IRG was not able to get control of the plant until this month due to first a lawsuit trying to stop the Parish from buying the plant and then interference from the state working on another deal for the site which also served to put a gag on everyone through a non disclosure agreement which effectively prevented Elio Motors from letting us know what was really happening at the plant until this month.

Non disclosure agreements are very common in business and I would not be surprised if Elio Motors is under more NDA's about other issues including potential funding sources. The fact of the matter is that plenty of things happen behind the scenes we will never know about, or will not know about for some time, so we must temper our opinions and ideas with the fact that we do not have a complete picture of what is going on.

As I have said before I don't think your, and your uncle's, problems on this forum have anything to do with your opinions but in how you express them. If you would stop personally attacking other members by calling them names instead of just responding to their opinions you would have a lot fewer issues here. We have a number of members who have no money down and try and discourage members from putting money down yet they do not have nearly the issues you have because they do not attack other members in their posts. Stay on topic and be respectful in your posts and you will find most member will respect your opinions in return.

 

[Rickb]

Older people wanting an Elio doesn't surprise me one bit. When I worked at a Toyota dealership 50 year olds+ bought the majority of Scion cars a brand intended for young people. I think once Elio is main stream all sectors of age will buy into the concept. As gas will not be getting cheaper and people sure as hell wont be making more money. A fuel efficient and affordable commuter car will be very popular.

..........and it just dawned on me that 50+ year olds are much smarter too.

 

[goofyone]

Older people wanting an Elio doesn't surprise me one bit. When I worked at a Toyota dealership 50 year olds+ bought the majority of Scion cars a brand intended for young people. I think once Elio is main stream all sectors of age will buy into the concept. As gas will not be getting cheaper and people sure as hell wont be making more money. A fuel efficient and affordable commuter car will be very popular.

I have noticed the age distribution on here but I agree with you and do not believe this is a true example of who will buy the Elio when it is available at retail. I believe the fact that reservations holders tend to be older is more likely a function of the older demographic being more likely to have the disposable income and willingness to invest it in this vehicle at this point in its development cycle as it is not a sure thing. I would bet this vehicle would appeal to a wide range of people however if you are struggling for money and want a cheap vehicle you definitely will not be taking a chance on this at this point. I have told many of my friends who are traditional 30 something suburban commuters with families and while the love the idea of an extremely fuel efficient and inexpensive commuter vehicle they also do not see any reason to put money down on a concept which may or may not happen.

 

[Debbie Bruce]

You are entitled to your opinions but keep in mind it is always easier to armchair quarterback and react to what you observe from the sidelines without having access to all the information than it is to be in the middle of the action and deal with the actual issues as they happen in real time.

The deal with IRG and Stuart Lichter, the landlord as you call him, has actually been fairly out in the open. That deal has nothing to do with the reservation numbers and instead control of the plant site. We have known since last year that IRG was supposed to invest the $7.5 million after they had control of the plant. What we now know is that due to outside interference IRG was not able to get control of the plant until this month due to first a lawsuit trying to stop the Parish from buying the plant and then interference from the state working on another deal for the site which also served to put a gag on everyone through a non disclosure agreement which effectively prevented Elio Motors from letting us know what was really happening at the plant until this month.

Non disclosure agreements are very common in business and I would not be surprised if Elio Motors is under more NDA's about other issues including potential funding sources. The fact of the matter is that plenty of things happen behind the scenes we will never know about, or will not know about for some time, so we must temper our opinions and ideas with the fact that we do not have a complete picture of what is going on.

As I have said before I don't think your, and your uncle's, problems on this forum have anything to do with your opinions but in how you express them. If you would stop personally attacking other members by calling them names instead of just responding to their opinions you would have a lot fewer issues here. We have a number of members who have no money down and try and discourage members from putting money down yet they do not have nearly the issues you have because they do not attack other members in their posts. Stay on topic and be respectful in your posts and you will find most member will respect your opinions in return.

Just wondering if you write little comments to others or read responses to post before you decide who is the attacker ..In many post by those who did not single anyone out received nut case remarks and name calling replies. I've noticed "goofyone likes this" at the bottom of several. Is it those who share your opinion getting a pass on language and personal attacks. I can not think of one post from anyone , any opinion that I called somone stupid or worse. However when I received them to mine I fired back. Seems you have the magic erasser enabling you to change, insert or delte any post to produce fault in person of your choice.

 

[Lil4X]

The "dashboard photo" is just a computer rendering, not a photograph of an actual Elio. Giveaways include sharp focus throughout - objects in foreground are equally sharp as those in the distance. Another is the lack of cast shadows and limited gradation of the dash. Finally, that wheel is about two years old - the current version seems borrowed from a Toyota. PhotoShop, Gimp, and even some CAD software are powerful tools, but like any tool, they are only as effective as the person wielding it and the time they have to invest in it. I don't think that illustration was ever intended to be photo-realistic, but a CAD drawing with surfaces and textures added with "global" lighting to point up the driver's perspective of the SB instrument panel. For that, it serves the purpose well.

As far as the gaps between engineering, production, and marketing, I can speak from small amount of experience to that. There is a whole series of steps between a cocktail napkin sketch and a prototype. Then there are often dozens - if not hundreds of changes that have to be made to make the design workable. Ditto something that can be manufactured in volume efficiently and at minimal cost. Then comes reliability testing and a whole new set of changes to arrive at a product that, once released for public sale, will perform well day after day, without continuing warranty problems. We can name a large number of automobiles produced overseas for the US market - even many that were engineered and manufactured in America, that were total mechanical failures. Yugo and Vega come to mind - and they came with the engineering and manufacturing expertise of Fiat and Chevrolet - two of the largest, most experienced automakers in the world. Is it any wonder EM is taking baby steps? I think not.

I spent many years working with companies bringing new products - even new technologies to market; I even headed a few projects myself, and I can assure you it's a very fluid process. One of my engineers used the old Southern expression, "It's like trying to nail Jell-O to a stump." Well, yeah, like that. You start with a set of design goals you hope to be able to carry through to production, but often a conflict of these demands dictates you make basic changes. Those changes will have to appear as changes in goals (the fast and cheap way), or changes in the product (the slow and expensive way). A couple of truisms eventually arise to bite you hard: First, is that changes do not exist in a vacuum - you make one small change and you have to make two to twenty other changes to accommodate it. There's a huge ripple effect here as the solution to one concern becomes a cascade of changes. A larger engine will require a more robust transmission, probably larger half-shafts and CV joints to survive the higher torque of the engine. Meanwhile the engine mounts may have to be changed to accept the larger block, we might even have to spread the frame rails to accept that block too. This will change the suspension pick-up points, thus the geometry, and require some tweaks to the wishbones. We haven't even considered larger brakes, trimmed up brake proportioning valves to accommodate the heavier nose, or any required changes to the front clip and hood to fit all this under.

There is an old adage in business that goes, "Do you want it cheap, fast, or good? . . . pick 2." If you want a good, reliable vehicle that is engineered to Paul Elio's lofty goals of mileage, cost, safety, and domestic content, it will take time. There are always those who will complain that the final product won't corner like an F1 car, won't return 12-second timeslips, or won't accommodate a family of six, but I would suggest they are looking at the wrong car in an Elio. Remember, that the Elio is a "scratch" design, incorporating a large number of well-proven parts . . . that have never had to work together before. That's a very tall order.

As far as marketing is concerned, that aspect of the company has experienced a number of running changes just as the design has. The first three prototypes were rolled out as "proof of concept", from which the final design could be developed. I don't recall any of these being touted as THE final product, but a work in progress. I used to have to have to sell a product that didn't exist to some pretty crusty old customers who had nothing but our company's reputation for success in engineering to bank on. One of these old guys, the CEO of his Fortune 500 company, eyed me and rumbled, "Well, your drawings appear to work about as well as your competitor's." That was Friday. Sunday morning I was on a plane for Abu Dhabi with 220 pounds of camera gear I had to smuggle in to document our second prototype on test in the Arabian Gulf. Fast-forward three weeks and I'm back in the CEO's office with a 12-minute presentation video documenting the performance of the product halfway around the world. He ordered two. Two months later, he ordered three more. In two years he bought eighteen. At a sale price of just under $1 million each, and delivery stretched out six to eight months in the future, it was a leap of faith that would put an Olympic long-jumper to shame.

Not all of us "future Elio owners" want to take that kind of chance. What we are seeing is the slow progression of a product from concept to reality and the running changes that are encountered along the way. You and I are sitting at ringside viewing the entire process - sometimes its boring, sometimes it's disappointing, but we're learning valuable lessons that will pay off in the end. Ford or GM takes a minimum of two to three years to do a "clean sheet of paper" design - and they have millions - if not billions of dollars to throw into the project, and they do all but the last few months of it behind the scenes. Ford's Mustang was basically a re-bodied Falcon, and although a number of design criteria fell by the wayside during development, the reason it became a classic was not engineering innovation, not manufacturing efficiency, but styling. It would take years to put a Mustang on the market that had the sellar performance its appearance promised. Sure there were the early Shelby's, but they were literally hand-rebuilds of the basic design. Pushing 250 vehicles per day out the door for a fledgling automaker like EM, building a whole new set of design priorities into a finished vehicle that will stand up to everyday commuting is an absolutely monumental task. You and I are watching the birth of a new product from the inside, experiencing the setbacks, the disappointments, and the triumphs as no ordinary auto buyer ever will.

Hang in there and try to be patient. Every day that delivery slips is a day closer to a product you can be proud of.