Anyone Else Think It Wont Happen?

[harlan stephens]

The kicker is even if spay bore works great.

The average machine shop will not be able to reduild it.

Yes auto engineers never get it wrong becuse they are smarter than little old me. except even bmw and jag had issues. I have had issues...and understand what happens here come rebuild time. Do you?


Funny how not one reply here based on pros and cons of the tech used

Just replys based on emotion with no substance at all. I get it. You have money rapped up here.

Again I hope they get it right I do want one.

 

[JEBar]

Do you really think that, based on the constant statement of EM's desire to use as much "off the shelf" content as possible, that they haven't seriously looked at every possible engine that is currently in production??

I don't know the "why" and do not care to speculate on what they might have or have not done .... I simply made a fact based comment on what they have done.... if I'm wrong about the facts given, please advise .... it is a good thing that they are using off the shelf components so as to prevent even more delays in development .... if the motor is undergoing testing and if it performs as we all hope, the production process will have taken a major step forward

Jim

 

[Charlie G]

After reading the past 2 days of comments here, I would like to point out that this thread is titled
"Anyone Else Think It Wont Happen?"
Bashing people for expressing their concerns in this thread and telling them to either just have faith or leave seems a little silly.

 

[Bert]

Hmm.
I'd like to point out, any rebuilt engine can be sleeved, any of them. What we have now days is a lack of Mom and Pop machine shops, unfortunately.
Even thirty years ago there was a never ending issue with the piston rings wearing out cylinder walls. The Vegas aluminum block had steel sleeves, as well as iron piston rings! The iron rings wore into the sleeves despite the oiling nature of the counterbalance shafts on the crank supplying ample oil to the lower cylinders. (For those who rebuilt them, remember the lip at the top of the cylinder we had to cut away before deciding to overbore or not?)
At first stainless steel was thought to be the answer, as it disapated heat a lot better than iron. It was thought the lower heat at the contact points would prolong the engine life. Still, it was a fifty thousand mile motor, give or take. The stainless steel ate at the walls faster than ever, but the break in time for the motor was almost zero.
Two things happened pretty much at the same time, total seal rings and Molly infusion rings. Total seal rings overlapped on the piston, instead of having an open place where the rings didn't quite meet. (I doubt I'm the only one who used several hours file fitting the rings to each piston hole, to get the maximum seal, while allowing for heat expansion.)
The coated aluminum walls first tried, what, twenty years ago, was victim to the rings not being up to the task. Either to soft, causing short engine life, or to hard, grinding away the coating.
Now they have such advances as Plasma Molly Rings. Hard enough to last, soft enough not to file away the cylinder coating. They disapate heat well, not to mention the oiling qualities are super good!
So, as I've stated before, I have nor real concerns for the flame pray, wet or dry, cylinder walls. Even with the long stroke, high compression, high torque (for it's size) motor.
However, I also would love to hear the engine is actually running at this point. Maybe with a variety of specs to see which one best meets the needs of Elio, and of course US!!
GO ELIO!!

 

[JEBar]

After reading the past 2 days of comments here, I would like to point out that this thread is titled
"Anyone Else Think It Wont Happen?"
Bashing people for expressing their concerns in this thread and telling them to either just have faith or leave seems a little silly.

AMEN

Jim

 

[tonyspumoni]

Hmm.
I'd like to point out, any rebuilt engine can be sleeved, any of them. What we have now days is a lack of Mom and Pop machine shops, unfortunately.
Even thirty years ago there was a never ending issue with the piston rings wearing out cylinder walls. The Vegas aluminum block had steel sleeves, as well as iron piston rings! The iron rings wore into the sleeves despite the oiling nature of the counterbalance shafts on the crank supplying ample oil to the lower cylinders. (For those who rebuilt them, remember the lip at the top of the cylinder we had to cut away before deciding to overbore or not?)
At first stainless steel was thought to be the answer, as it disapated heat a lot better than iron. It was thought the lower heat at the contact points would prolong the engine life. Still, it was a fifty thousand mile motor, give or take. The stainless steel ate at the walls faster than ever, but the break in time for the motor was almost zero.
Two things happened pretty much at the same time, total seal rings and Molly infusion rings. Total seal rings overlapped on the piston, instead of having an open place where the rings didn't quite meet. (I doubt I'm the only one who used several hours file fitting the rings to each piston hole, to get the maximum seal, while allowing for heat expansion.)
The coated aluminum walls first tried, what, twenty years ago, was victim to the rings not being up to the task. Either to soft, causing short engine life, or to hard, grinding away the coating.
Now they have such advances as Plasma Molly Rings. Hard enough to last, soft enough not to file away the cylinder coating. They disapate heat well, not to mention the oiling qualities are super good!
So, as I've stated before, I have nor real concerns for the flame pray, wet or dry, cylinder walls. Even with the long stroke, high compression, high torque (for it's size) motor.
However, I also would love to hear the engine is actually running at this point. Maybe with a variety of specs to see which one best meets the needs of Elio, and of course US!!
GO ELIO!!

Now that is an excellent post, Bert. Informative, rational, and well-reasoned. Props, Bert.

 

[Hog]

Actually the Vega block did NOT have steel sleeves, it was a silicone type treatment of the aluminum bore, and the steel piston rings, I owned three. The last one had the motor taken out and steel sleeves installed, and from then on, it performed perfectly. When the car finally wore out, the engine was removed and sold to a guy making a big generator out of it. It just could not be killed at that point.
I am one of the ones who do not regard the arc-spray treatment as 'proven', and I am familiar with the process, as we perform it here at our shop. There can be issues with it, and they are hard to detect. Other manufacturers claim to be using it, but from what I researched, very few production models have been made and sold (mostly because of cost), and those that are out there do not have serious mileage on them yet. Just because some have been produced years ago does not automatically make them 'proven'. I am sure the Vega engine looked good for the first three or four years as well, and remember the Cosworth?
Let me state for the record - I fully support the Elio-type vehicle, one that is cheap, reliable, and good gas mileage. So far Mr. Elio seems to be pulling it off, and thats great, but if it does not fly, others will follow, and I will support them as well. Cautiously optimistic is the only way I can be, because I have a long memory, and I remember the Bricklin, the Yugo, the Chevette, and a number of other attempts at innovative design, it doesn't always work out, but I will support the effort regardless.

 

[harlan stephens]

Funny how my post was added to this one.
My poll I had set up gone.
The name of my post changed.

Mods..

Really? Pretty sad.

 

[Bert]

Actually the Vega block did NOT have steel sleeves, it was a silicone type treatment of the aluminum bore, and the steel piston rings, I owned three. The last one had the motor taken out and steel sleeves installed, and from then on, it performed perfectly. When the car finally wore out, the engine was removed and sold to a guy making a big generator out of it. It just could not be killed at that point.

Not to argue, perhaps there was more choices than I knew about. I owned a 72 Vega, 2.3 4 spd. Nice highlift cam and steel sleeves from the day it was new. I rebuilt the engine when the Vega became a racing car. Stock bore, but still very much steel sleeved. The replacement engine was also steel sleeved, though I know nothing of its prior history.
The Vega engines were a novilty for me, as I was a lot more accustome to cast iron blocks. I was amazed at the tech involved with them, and annoyed by the oil pan liner, but learned its value when I tried to go without it and flooded the bottom of the pistons. Hydrolocked engines despite positive crankcase ventilation.

Edited, as my memory seems to think i was a 2.3, nnot a 2.5 lit. engine. A 140 ci. comes to mind.

 

[Bert]

And, perhaps, I found an answer. Mom had a "Wild Thing" phase, resulting in the Vega. She also had the infamous headgasket issue, due to the cast iron head, aluminum block, temperature issues.
Here's a clippitt from Wikipedia.

"Chevrolet added a coolant overflow bottle and an electronic low-coolant indicator in 1974 that could be retrofitted to earlier models at no cost. Under a revised 50,000-mile (80,000 km) engine warranty for 1971 to 1975 Vegas, the owner of a damaged engine could choose replacement with a new short block or a rebuilt steel-sleeved unit, which proved costly for Chevrolet. GM engineer Fred Kneisler maintains that too much emphasis had been put on overheating problems, the real culprits being brittle valve stem seals and too-thin piston plating. Regardless of the cause, damaged cylinder walls were common."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Vega

Maybe Momma didn't want to be sleeveless anymore!! I ended up with it and enjoyed it a long time, before giving it super powers on the race track.

One thing though, the 72 Vega had leaf springs under the rear, the article said coil springs. o_O