A Diesel?

[Snick]

The only reason I would love a diesel option is that I can make my own biodiesel from waste vegetable oil for less than $1.00/gallon.

And, the torque is insanely addictive.

Still, the economic case is very weak, if one has to pay for fuel at the pump.

 

[checho]

As a general rule diesel engines are about 30% more efficient than equivalent gasoline engines.
In the case of a small engine the same holds to be true for example compare the smartfortwo disel vs gasoline, or the jetta gasoline vs diesel, it is clear that over 30% better fuel efficiency is achieved.
A non turbo diesel would add a little to the cost of the Elio maybe an additional $1k, and a turbo diesel probably $1500 more.

The Elio with a diesel engine could achieve over 110 MPG, not only that but it would be simpler than the gasoline engine, no distribuitor, no coil, no spark plugs, less maintenance, more durability, more robust engine, a little bit more weigh helping with traction, a diesel engine lasts twice as long as a gasoline engine, my mercedes has over 420k miles and the engine runs great, does not burn oil.

Most of us would probably be willing to pay $1k o $2k more for a diesel engine, hopefully it is offered as an option, the fuel savings, the less maintenance and the longer engine durability would pay for themselves in a short time.

As far as fuel price, in the US diesel and premium gasoline cost the same, in most other countries diesel is cheaper than gasoline and Elio will eventually go international.

Most likely the Elio will use premium gasoline since in other to achieve 84 MPG it will be a high compression engine, a high compression engine uses premium fuel, if Elio where to use a low compression engine there would be no savings since the miles per gallon would be lower than with a high compression engine.

So when comparing the price of Diesel it has to be compared to premium gasoline, engines that use low octane fuel have lower compression and lower fuel efficiency.

Plus a diesel engine fits the spirit of Elio perfectly well in regards to keeping things simple and durable.
Forgot to mention the benefit of high torque at low RPMs.

The only critical maintenance of a diesel engine is keeping the oil clean, and using good oil, and good oil filters, and good air filters, also good fuel filters, and the engine will last forever.

Also with a diesel engine you will have the option of running 100% bio-diesel.

 

[CheeseheadEarl]

Checho, you've obviously not "enjoyed" a new EPA Tier IV diesel. They've been loaded with more emissions crap than a mid 80s gas motor, and reliability has gone to the dogs. No way I'd own one out of warranty, and one covered by warranty wouldn't be my first choice either.

 

[checho]

Checho, you've obviously not "enjoyed" a new EPA Tier IV diesel. They've been loaded with more emissions crap than a mid 80s gas motor, and reliability has gone to the dogs. No way I'd own one out of warranty, and one covered by warranty wouldn't be my first choice either.

Does the EPA apply to a motorcycle?

 

[CheeseheadEarl]

Does the EPA apply to a motorcycle?

Cars, trucks, farm machinery, construction equipment, you name it. As diesel motorcycles are not real common, they're not specifically mentioned.

A quick search shows emission limits for motorcycles currently. I don't know whether a diesel in any emissions trim would meet them or not.

Highway Motorcycle Exhaust Emission Standards

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1 _ 0. el6
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We expect these standards to be met through an increased use of tech- nologies already demonstrated as being effective on 4-stroke motorcycle engines, such as secondary air injection, electronic fuel injection sys- tems, and catalytic converters. The standards are not expected to result in the universal use of catalytic converters.

Current standards are .8 g/km of HC+NOX and 12 g/km of CO for engines over 280 cc as of 2010. Sorry, the chart didn't cut and paste well.

 

[StuartGrant]

Kohler's KDI don't have a DPF or many of the other things other Tier IV diesels have. To reduce particulate matter they went with a 2000 PSI common rail fuel injection system which actuates multiple times per ignition event to better vaporize the fuel. Sure they cost a ton compared to the competition but the savings of not having to replace the DPF and improved fuel efficency pay off eventually.

 

[goofyone]

As a general rule diesel engines are about 30% more efficient than equivalent gasoline engines.
In the case of a small engine the same holds to be true for example compare the smartfortwo disel vs gasoline, or the jetta gasoline vs diesel, it is clear that over 30% better fuel efficiency is achieved.
A non turbo diesel would add a little to the cost of the Elio maybe an additional $1k, and a turbo diesel probably $1500 more.

The Elio with a diesel engine could achieve over 110 MPG, not only that but it would be simpler than the gasoline engine, no distribuitor, no coil, no spark plugs, less maintenance, more durability, more robust engine, a little bit more weigh helping with traction, a diesel engine lasts twice as long as a gasoline engine, my mercedes has over 420k miles and the engine runs great, does not burn oil.

Most of us would probably be willing to pay $1k o $2k more for a diesel engine, hopefully it is offered as an option, the fuel savings, the less maintenance and the longer engine durability would pay for themselves in a short time.

As far as fuel price, in the US diesel and premium gasoline cost the same, in most other countries diesel is cheaper than gasoline and Elio will eventually go international.

Most likely the Elio will use premium gasoline since in other to achieve 84 MPG it will be a high compression engine, a high compression engine uses premium fuel, if Elio where to use a low compression engine there would be no savings since the miles per gallon would be lower than with a high compression engine.

So when comparing the price of Diesel it has to be compared to premium gasoline, engines that use low octane fuel have lower compression and lower fuel efficiency.

Plus a diesel engine fits the spirit of Elio perfectly well in regards to keeping things simple and durable.
Forgot to mention the benefit of high torque at low RPMs.

The only critical maintenance of a diesel engine is keeping the oil clean, and using good oil, and good oil filters, and good air filters, also good fuel filters, and the engine will last forever.

Also with a diesel engine you will have the option of running 100% bio-diesel.

As I have said before the issues with an Elio diesel are not technological but purely economics.

The biggest issue I see with a diesel is that the extra cost goes against Elio Motors current goal of extremely low cost. They have already routinely been known to sacrifice technologies which could improve fuel efficiency because of cost. Elio Motors current goal is not absolute fuel efficiency but instead getting as much fuel efficiency as possible balanced against the lowest possible price. This could change in the future as they become more established however this is just the way they EM does things for now and I would not expect to see this change for a few years until they are more established.

Another big issues which hurts the chances of an Elio diesel engine in the USA is that we already know that through some very creative engineering the Elio/IAV engine will use standard grade gasoline and not premium. Due to this fact the vehicle already would have minimal gas costs so any difference in purchase price is very hard to make up as the fuel savings per year in this country do not add up to very much money. For the average driver in this country the savings of buying diesel would only be in the neighborhood of $100 per year.

The savings a diesel offers also vary depending on engine size. The 30% difference in fuel economy is merely an average as this varies as you get into smaller or bigger engines especially modern small gas engines. My diesel pickup easily gets 50+% better fuel mileage than the comparable V10 truck engine and still has more torque which I need for towing. However on the other end when you compare fuel efficiency in European cars, where it is easy to compare as many cars offer both, you will find that in small cars the difference can drop below 20% as the modern small gas engines are extremely fuel efficient as exampled by Toyota's Atkinson cycle engines as well as the Ford Ecoboost and GM Ecotec 3-cylinders models.

None of this means Elio Motors will never do a diesel however it would not make economical sense for them to do it for the North American market. It would either take a good bit of money to develop their own or they would have to buy it off the shelf from someone else which means added cost as someone else would need to make money and the engine would not likely be as optimized for a vehicle of this weight like the Elio/IAV gas engine is. On top of all that for much less money than a diesel Elio Motors could always choose to improve both the fuel efficiency and performance of this engine by engineering a more advanced cylinder head with dual cams, four valves per cylinder, VVT, and any other technologies they may wish to add.

 

[msmith5150]

The Elio engine likely won't require or even recommend premium gas. And bio-diesel is not recommended for use by any of the manufacturers of the over the road engines I work on, in fact it voids most warranties.

 

[Snick]

Kohler's KDI don't have a DPF or many of the other things other Tier IV diesels have. To reduce particulate matter they went with a 2000 PSI common rail fuel injection system which actuates multiple times per ignition event to better vaporize the fuel. Sure they cost a ton compared to the competition but the savings of not having to replace the DPF and improved fuel efficency pay off eventually.

I think you meant 20,000 psi. Low pressure 2,000 psi diesel injection systems are long gone since the 90's. CR diesels range from 18,000-33,000 line pressures depending on accumulator sizing, pump design, and engine speed + mapping. And, common rail does not negate the need for DPF and urea injection and the like.

 

[CheeseheadEarl]

I looked the Kohler up last night. It's 2000 bar, sorry I don't have the conversion handy, but much higher than 2000psi. It also uses cooled EGR and is well over 500 lbs.