As I See It, Gloves Off...

[Reid3400]

I think they had/have a plan, just a little slow to materialize. I actually appreciate your point of view, but probably is as accurate as mine or anyone else's that can only be based on perception/speculation.

The truth? I can't handle the truth! It's still to early in the game to know the whinners.

Rick, ESC hold the patents. That is not a point of view, perception or opinion. The structure of ESG, EM, is not an accident. It is a control plan. ESG have no skin in the EM game. They are taking the skins out daily. This has worked very well on 40,000 dreamers and millions more before them in other promotions. For me, once I understood the structure, the prudent thing to do was wait and see if ESG can pull it off, build a car by using EM as an empty bag. Then in 2 months after the bugs are worked out and the dreamers are fed, buy one. I am very happy there are 40,000 dreamers, but it may take 400,000 to get the Elio into production? No one seems to want to give $300M with no strings attached, based of 40,000 non-binding purchase contracts. .

In the meantime, I enjoy my $5000 Miata every day, while I can easily sell it if the time comes. Use a can opener on an Elio and have my boat-top buddy build me an insulated winter roof. Thereby enjoying the Elio to the fullest. My sole concern is getting too old to drive or dying before this happens.

 

[Rickb]

I think the focus was to raise capital from the very beginning. I think they were surprised by the financial response from their target market. The plan should have been to easily raise as much venture capital needed to guarantee the most efficient production schedule, without delays due to funding issues, for the thousands of smaller reservationist investors.

I don't care how many millionaire investors have to split any profits in the end. I ass-u-me there already has been millions shared by the current elite investor group. I'm thinking they have drawn salaries and or bonuses on their venture capital over the past few years. I doubt this is a "will work for food" business venture. This group could likely do their own funding 100%. They don't want or need the risk their own resources since there is apparently free money out there for those who already have it. So we wait until they find it. I do know for a fact that I will not be giving them any more.

 

[Reid3400]

It makes perfect sense that ESG would own whatever
'IP' they are entitled to. We all would do the same. Does
that make it hard to raise capital, yup. That they have got
this far is testament to smarts & tenacity & tapping into
the zeitgeist of mobility.......

Yup, zeitgiest has worked well on 40,000 dreamers, not so well on the masses or the media and not on deep pocket investors at all.

 

[Rickb]

Rick, ESC hold the patents. That is not a point of view, perception or opinion. The structure of ESG, EM, is not an accident. It is a control plan. ESG have no skin in the EM game. They are taking the skins out daily. This has worked very well on 40,000 dreamers and millions more before them in other promotions. For me, once I understood the structure, the prudent thing to do was wait and see if ESG can pull it off, build a car by using EM as an empty bag. Then in 2 months after the bugs are worked out and the dreamers are fed, buy one. I am very happy there are 40,000 dreamers, but it may take 400,000 to get the Elio into production? No one seems to want to give $300M with no strings attached, based of 40,000 non-binding purchase contracts. .

In the meantime, I enjoy my $5000 Miata every day, while I can easily sell it if the time comes. Use a can opener on an Elio and have my boat-top buddy build me an insulated winter roof. Thereby enjoying the Elio to the fullest. My sole concern is getting too old to drive or dying before this happens.

You are at least having some driving fun while you wait. Since I am already old and wise I trust no one. I have only committed to a $100 refundable deposit and wouldn't dream of gambling any more on a startup company getting a concept vehicle to production. I sincerely hope they do it by 2017 and can't be overly critical of their progress to date. Lots of hard working people (reservationists) financially behind Elio Motors that deserve delivery on their Elio. Frankly, they should have been taking delivery around Christmas 2015 and not simply waiting for the P5 unveil around Thanksgiving 2015. What will be, will be, the futures not ours to see.

 

[Reid3400]

I think the focus was to raise capital from the very beginning. I think they were surprised by the financial response from their target market. The plan should have been to easily raise as much venture capital needed to guarantee the most efficient production schedule, without delays due to funding issues, for the thousands of smaller reservationist investors.

I don't care how many millionaire investors have to split any profits in the end. I ass-u-me there already has been millions shared by the current elite investor group. I'm thinking they have drawn salaries and or bonuses on their venture capital over the past few years. I doubt this is a "will work for food" business venture. This group could likely do their own funding 100%. They don't want or need the risk their own resources since there is apparently free money out there for those who already have it. So we wait until they find it.

I do not share the opinion that ESG are taking out millions in salaries or bonuses from Elio. I do not think they are sharks or this is a scam. I suspect this is a dedicated group of engineers and idealists who believe in the Elio as much as anyone. My contention is, they have a financial adviser who knows exactly what he is doing, to minimize ESG's risk, maintain 100% control of the product while maximizing any profit which might accrue from the manufacturer of the vehicle, goes to ESG. The problem is, the financial market is much smarter than this bean counter and will not go along with the plan. This genius may even be "E", "S" or "G", it does not matter. What matters is the plan is not working. The money is not there and the vehicle is not being built. ESG totally screwed up on their first product, a world class vehicle seat. Better than anything on the market at the time. They made 2 mistakes; Cost of the product was above what the customer would pay and keeping 100% control of the manufacturing process. They have got the price right this time, but by demanding 100% control of the finances, no one will provide the funding. How long do you stick to a plan which is not working?

 

[Rickb]

I think well see the Elio on EM's terms, just later than expected. If they didn't have a plan, it will get to production by dumb luck and the perseverance of the hardcore Elio supporters that will end up with an Elio and making some profit on their investment. The best out come ever.

 

[WilliamH]

I have asked the question to stop the nonsense of people posting false information. Please show me just one patent holder of the hundreds on the Elio? I feel is it the responsibility of the poster in the first instance, after claiming EM value for "intellectual property." I will give you a clue. The "E" in ESG is ELIO, PAUL ELIO. ESG is a totally separate corporation. Now go and find who are "S" and "G"? And while you are at it, confirm who owns all the intellectual property rights? Who holds all the current "value" of the ELIO, while the public hold a ticket to get in a line, to have a peek in an so far, empty bag? Do you understand the structure yet? EM is an empty shell. ESG owns everything of value. The people in control not only have all the cards, they are in a different game. Why do you think it has been so difficult to gain financial support for EM? EM is asking for side bets on an empty pot in a game with no cards. All the chips are in the other game, the ESG game. Are you beginning to get the picture? Why hasn't anyone asked PE about this structure? Am I the only one who understands it? It is classic stock program 101. If you have a great product, you setup a private company which holds all the rights and license these rights to a second company which is financed by public money. You set the fees for these rights. You never risk ownership of the rights, you keep them private. The public takes all the risk and you take any profit. There are many more steps to this program. It has been played out many times all over the world. When EM goes public, we will see ESG holding 90% of the common stock. How does all this effect the production of the Elio? It has made the financing very difficult, if not impossible to get. People with enough money to make the Elio happen are not stupid. They will not buy into EM while ESG holds all the value to the product and controls the revenue stream. The people pledging the $25M don't seem to understand the structure?
I will no doubt get another blast from the moderators, if not outright banned. So be it. Shoot the messenger and keep the truth hidden.

You were asked a civil question. It deserves a civil answer.

 

[Ekh]

I'm not at all sure how much intellectual property there actually is in an Elio. There aren't a lot of patentable elements, and the car is made from a lot of existing parts. It's the combination of these things that is new. Could other people come up with something similar? Sure, but they'd have the same entrance barriers Elio is facing. And the Big 3 fundamentally hate little cars, the margins don't suit them.

I'm also certain that nobody associated with Elio is getting rich from the funds of the reservation holders. What you have instead is a bunch of people not making much money, busting their asses, and willing to "die" for something they believe in. The Board members are already very well-heeled persons; they aren't skimming -- why would they bother.

You may be right that ESG is a holding company and Elio the hard-working "dogs" that will pull the sled. But I don't think so. Paul Elio has taken a bunch of very, very serious personal hits to do this car. If he wants to have some air cover, who's to blame him?

Elio Motors may fail. But not from a moral deficit or greed on the part of Paul Elio and his close team. I've met some of these people. I think they're ethical, professional, and dedicated. So give it a rest, OK?

 

[Reid3400]

You were asked a civil question. It deserves a civil answer.

You made a statement that there was IP value in EM. I asked you to provide your source of this? You answer with another question. Did I miss your answer?

 

[MikeVisual]

I've been "all in" for about 2 months now, so some of you might think that isn't very long and I shouldn't have a right to complain. Well, nuts to that! I've been watching Elio for about 2 years and besides, my grand is as green as anyones. That said...

Like me, I guess most of you get an email from Elio every day or two. At first I found them interesting, but it didn't take long to realize that basically they don't really say anything. It's the same old tired hype with the same old bubbly catch phrases and same old giddy cheerleading every time.

They've raised a pile of cash. Not enough to go into production maybe, but surely enough to finally build something besides one-off prototypes. How much does it cost to build 25 cars? Of course it's more expensive than with the assembly line, but if it cost even $40,000 per car they could still do it for one million and that's a drop in the bucket compared to what they've raised.

Enough already! How about sending us an email with pictures of a bunch of guys with wrenches and screwdrivers sticking parts together. It's time to stop talking and build something!

Alright already! If you think this is bad, you should have bought Dinars 7 years ago, any day now it's going to RV! Believe me this is a drop in the bucket. I'm familiar with "hurry up and wait" but also the military goes by "if you're 15 minutes early you're on time, if you're on time you're late! It will be nice if they can be on time and not push it out again!