Okay, I'll ask again...how much time do they need to make a decision? They've had EMs loan application for what, at least a year now? They've had plenty of time, and 4 prototypes, to make their decision...they're unnecessarily dragging their feet...
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Okay, I'll ask again...how much time do they need to make a decision? They've had EMs loan application for what, at least a year now? They've had plenty of time, and 4 prototypes, to make their decision...they're unnecessarily dragging their feet...
NSTG8R
Elio Addict
JNR
Elio Addict
I strongly agree with Rickb on this subject. At the core of the ATVM requirements is demonstration of 75 mpg, the P4 didn't demonstrate that. I think the mpg simulations probably can be trusted, but there are probably too many assumptions being made in that simulation until the actual production prototype is built.
Personally, I think the question shouldn't be why is the DOE dragging their feet more so than it should be why didn't Elio realize this a year ago and get the P5 built then and ready for an IAV engine to pop in?
WilliamH
Elio Addict
Let's do a reality check. The current administration does not like petroleum powered anything.
As a result, they are slow walking the process.
The same thing they did with Keystone XL.
Excuses, excuses, excuses, until Congress passed a bill.
Then they had to veto it and show their true colors.
I fear that they are intentionally dragging their feet on Elio.
Their guidance reads............
1) TECHNICAL APPLICATION REQUIREMENTS
B. Qualification [10 CFR 611.101(c)]:
A detailed explanation of how the proposed project qualifies under applicable law to receive a loan under 10 CFR 611, including vehicle simulations using industry standard software such as DOE’s Autonomie (previously PSAT) or similar model to show projected fuel economy.
Above extracted from ------> http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/02/f19/ATVM_Guidance_for_Applicants_11.4.14.pdf <------
I'm missing that part that says you must have the P5 prototype to show actual results.
I agree, they have enough info to approve the loan...there is something else going on here and I also believe they are intentionally dragging their feet...they need to either approve or disapprove the loan so the process can move on to either production, or looking for another source of funding...all of this "leaving people hanging" stuff is hurting EM's chances of ever being able to start production, regardless of where the funding comes from...
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CompTrex
Elio Addict
I'm more of a naive optimest. I'm not sure they are intentionally dragging their feet so this won't come to market. I just believe they are gun-shy after the beating that they've taken on other loan approvals. No real incentive to push this through so it drags along at a snail's pace.
karl
Elio Addict
"I saw a lot of pictures on the internet, There must be a bunch of them." Well no. There have been some huge steps taken so far the biggest yet to happen is production. Till there line is up and running none of the things so many of us seem to take for granted will happen. Most things automotive get built in the computer these days and even tested there. Final testing still happens in the real world and in the metal. There is a difference between designed for and mission accomplished.
I would love to see development happen at a faster pace but am still willing to wait as long as I have to. The Elio is a game changer in the mobility market and I would love to see it happen in time to be able to own one myself. The sums of my commitment for deposit and crowdfunding are no more than I can afford to lose. We Homo Sapiens have taken over the earth by being a cooperative species. I still have hope.
I would love to see development happen at a faster pace but am still willing to wait as long as I have to. The Elio is a game changer in the mobility market and I would love to see it happen in time to be able to own one myself. The sums of my commitment for deposit and crowdfunding are no more than I can afford to lose. We Homo Sapiens have taken over the earth by being a cooperative species. I still have hope.
Your ass-u-me- reality and my ass-u-me reality varies based on your very first sentence. Didn't the current administration 'bail out' the petroleum powered auto industry? The current administration has provided continued DOE support and funding to promote higher mpg standards along with creating alternative energy vehicle options. Billions of ATVM loans went to petroleum powered Ford Motors. The feet dragging are not the DOE's.
EM stated long ago they HAD funding in the bank and were going to start the P5-30 builds. That available funding EM said they had APPARENTLY never existed or an investor pulled their pledged financial commitment for whatever the reason which APPARENTLY changed EM's financial statements considerably ($25 million + to build the P5-30) and delayed their production schedule yet again, to all our disappointment and PERHAPS to the DOE's surprise and dissappointment too, assuming the DOE had feelings. Those two realities, the loss of funding PE said they had and building the P5 had some POSSIBLE impact on the DOE'S decision to hold EM's Application at it's current step 2 hurdle in the approval process.
EM APPARENTLY has to demonstrate their ability to repay the ATVM Loan and they currently don't have a P5 prototype that has been built or tested, they don't own the manufacturing facility, but rather making lease payments, the 1.5 million sf of plant space is not currently tooled up and running, and no employees to build the vehicles to fill the reservations required to create revenue to repay the loan. I doubt EM has other collateral to secure the ATVM loan which impacts financial credibility and I do not have access to EM's financials, but only EM stated info.
I feel the DOE is waiting patiently for concrete results along with the rest of us. Overall, currently a very positive EM climate. I hope all that possible crowdfunding interest ends up in the bank. My world ass-u-me reality.
Ekh
Elio Addict
I hadn't looked at it this way, but you may really have this right. Maybe they're not dragging their feet, but are giving Elio a chance to demonstrate they can actually do the job and repay the loan.
I think key things that might positively influence DOE are 1. Successful testing of the P5, demonstrating the 75+ mpg needed to qualify. 2. The success of the crowd sourcing campaign (yes, I know they are all just expressions of interest at this point, but $25 millions worth is making a real statement). 3. The number of all-in reservations, which has increased since the app was filed last summer by about 30%. As EM says on the StartEngine campaign page, those reservations translate to FIRM ORDERS for over $290 million worth of cars. Those millions will not only pay for production for the first year, but will make a start on paying back the ATVM loan. That's serious money, and I'm sure DOE is looking hard at that.
It would help greatly if another independent source of funding were available. But we all know the challenges there, and some of the reasons Paul hasn't landed any whales. (His control needs regarding this car are off the chart -- and with some good reasons, but landing big investors ain't one of them.)
So -- maybe DOE is saying, "Give Ps a chance" and holding back their decision for positive rather than negative reasons.
WilliamH
Elio Addict
........"Didn't the current administration 'bail out' the petroleum powered auto industry?"..........
I remember they said it had to be done or GM and Chrysler would go bankrupt........... And cost jobs.
Hmmmm ....... GM went bankrupt anyway and those bankruptcy laws were bent so that investors lost and unions got paid.
Chrysler
Hmmmm ............ Now called FCA because they are owned by an Italian firm named Fiat.
...........
I notice you didn't argue about Keystone XL.
They started building P5 in late June - early July.
[ based on Paul Elios comment (re: 20 week P4) that would mean P5 "should" be completed before Thanksgiving
Elio owns the equipment in the Shreveport plant. Physical assets AKA collateral.
(Not just what they have up for sale)
The rights to the new engine ........ intellectual property AKA collateral.
..............
Obviously, you are entitled to your opinion.
My objection is you appear to be adding requirements that are not included in the DOE LPO guidance.
Their guidance reads............
1) TECHNICAL APPLICATION REQUIREMENTS
B. Qualification [10 CFR 611.101(c)]:
A detailed explanation of how the proposed project qualifies under applicable law to receive a loan under 10 CFR 611, including vehicle simulations using industry standard software such as DOE’s Autonomie (previously PSAT) or similar model to show projected fuel economy.
[ http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/02/f19/ATVM_Guidance_for_Applicants_11.4.14.pdf ]
And like yourself, I too am eagerly awaiting the P5