Time To "get 'er Done"

[JEBar]

I am going to face the wrath of the troll hunters for this, but I have to be honest. eliothegreat raises some valid points. Not all perhaps, but certainly some. .

what have I missed, sorry, I just don't see it .... if you are referring to the list in his post #118, what did I miss in an item for item response in post #122 .... I firmly believe his statement a the end of point #5 in post 127 ===> "I don't trust elio motors" .... that is his bottom line as I noted in post #129, he has every right to feel as he chooses .... I do respect him for not posting and running and for being willing to maturely discuss his points .... the bottom line is, his thinking that the company is fraudulently corrupt because target dates have been missed and the P4 doesn't have all of the equipment that will be found on production models is false and misleading

 

[eliothegreat]

what have I missed, sorry, I just don't see it .... if you are referring to the list in his post #118, what did I miss in an item for item response in post #122 .... I firmly believe his statement a the end of point #5 in post 127 ===> "I don't trust elio motors" .... that is his bottom line as I noted in post #129, he has every right to feel as he chooses .... I do respect him for not posting and running and for being willing to maturely discuss his points .... the bottom line is, his thinking that the company is fraudulently corrupt because target dates have been missed and the P4 doesn't have all of the equipment that will be found on production models is false and misleading

I don't trust elio because they have deliberately mislead and directed people into sending money without having a solid business plan.

Even though we have talked a bit in pm's, you do not understand my thinking at all. Missing the dates is minor in comparison to the reasons behind the dates being missed. Either they have not created Gantt charts (or the equivalent) internally, or they have repeatedly lied about the production dates. There are a number of things that have to happen before a production vehicle can be delivered. Some of these things must be done serially, others in parallel, and many can overlap. The mantra for excusing the missed production dates is something like "It's really hard to start a new car company." Well, duh. The question is "When did elio figure that out?" Was it before or after they made promises, or "casually mentioned some nebulous goals"? Back before this forum was created, they were presenting the Trikke as having all the R&D completed. Not only was that not true two years ago, it is still not true. For this project to come together, there are a number of areas/fields/professions that need to work in unison. Marketing/advertising/sales, accounting/finance, engineering/design, supply lines/manufacturing, distribution/support, management/training, and more. Elio motors has devolved into principally a marketing concern. They have made a fair amount of money for a 20-25 person outfit selling t-shirts and bumper stickers. They are back to bringing in about $20-25k per day doing this. In their peak times, they were collecting over $100k per day, and averaged over $40k per day for a long time. Those are pretty impressive numbers. During that time, paul elio told me in person that they had sold more vehicles the month before in the U.S.A. than Mitsubishi. Unfortunately, he has/had fallen victim to believing his own press releases. He hasn't sold any vehicles yet. Just t-shirts and bumper stickers. "Read the agreement", no obligation to build, to sell, nor to buy any vehicle.

Engineers are curious people. They like to try things out, to built and test, and try it again. The sales people apparently took over the company, and the engineers went into hiding. I've stated it before, but any engineer worth his salt would have tested the P3 and P4 for acceleration, handling, mileage, etc. They would have insisted that the exhaust system be repaired. They would have put a latch on the trunk right after the first show. They would be insisting on having the abs and traction control on test vehicles. They would have insisted on a build with production ride height. Unfettered, engineers would be happy to play with prototypes until the money ran out.

Sales people love the show, the glamor, the attention. The are good at separating prospects from their money. When the company finally realized that they could collect more money from the work of the sales/marketing force than from the engineers, all the focus moved to sales. Unfortunately, sales people usually aren't great money managers, and often spend it as fast as they make it. Especially if it's not their money.

Which brings us to the accounting/finance types. Good at managing money, or at least preserving what already exists. Ideally, they shoot for bang-for-the-buck, but often it just comes down to not liking to spend money.

Leadership and management need to coordinate these groups and play off the best of the capabilities of all of them, and the other members of the team. Unfortunately, the balance fell almost entirely to marketing. The company apparently had designers, but nobody to actually built and test the product. So no prototypes were built and tested. The marketing people got a couple of show circuit units. They made promises that the engineering types would have to keep, but never got the chance to build and test.

The original off-the-shelf project turned into a contradiction of the over-exuberant promises of the marketing people. The $150M needed to start the project in 2013 has now become $300M. No further development and testing has taken place for two years. I'm sure some CAD work has been happening behind the scenes, and the front suspension and bodywork has been tweaked, but no real world testing has happened.

So where is the company now? There is no public information as to how much of the $65M that has been claimed to have been raised is left. We have been told that $26M went to the plant equipment. At least $1M of the $30M private placement went to fees. Another $1M ($987K) went to the BoD. Another $1-2M in salaries for the last 2 years. T&E for the road show probably ate up at least another $.5M. According to Hector $1M went to the prototypes. At most that leaves about $30-35M before money is spent on the engine development, factory rent, and who knows what else.

From all appearances, they don't seem to have enough money to build another prototype. Which they claimed cost $100k, up until a couple of months ago, when the cost magically, a year after it was built, went up to $500k.

Anyway, I didn't mean to write a book. I haven't even started on the nonsensical arguments as to why they needed to build their own engine. That alone, without allowing for inflation, easily explains the increase from $150M to $300M needed to get the project off the ground. Did you hear paul explain that they could not buy the engine because engine manufacturers are capitalists and would want to make a profit on the engine? Where is he going to get the rest of the parts (off the shelf) and materials to build the vehicle? From communists? Everybody wants to make a profit. Without profit, businesses fail, and consumers have no product to buy.

If this forum wanted to be of value to elio motors, the members, who are supportive, should be asking the hard questions. Being able to answers the hard questions is the only hope elio has of making it to production. Misdirection and canned answers will work on low information voters, but they will not work on serious investors. It has worked repeatedly with the government, so it might work again there.

Feel free to dismiss me as a troll, or call me a fool, or part of some evil conspiracy if you wish. If the numbers don't work, money people will not invest. If the numbers work, but the wrong people are running the show, the money people will want control and will put in their own people.

 

[CompTrex]

I don't trust elio because they have deliberately mislead and directed people into sending money without having a solid business plan.

Even though we have talked a bit in pm's, you do not understand my thinking at all. Missing the dates is minor in comparison to the reasons behind the dates being missed. Either they have not created Gantt charts (or the equivalent) internally, or they have repeatedly lied about the production dates. There are a number of things that have to happen before a production vehicle can be delivered. Some of these things must be done serially, others in parallel, and many can overlap. The mantra for excusing the missed production dates is something like "It's really hard to start a new car company." Well, duh. The question is "When did elio figure that out?" Was it before or after they made promises, or "casually mentioned some nebulous goals"? Back before this forum was created, they were presenting the Trikke as having all the R&D completed. Not only was that not true two years ago, it is still not true. For this project to come together, there are a number of areas/fields/professions that need to work in unison. Marketing/advertising/sales, accounting/finance, engineering/design, supply lines/manufacturing, distribution/support, management/training, and more. Elio motors has devolved into principally a marketing concern. They have made a fair amount of money for a 20-25 person outfit selling t-shirts and bumper stickers. They are back to bringing in about $20-25k per day doing this. In their peak times, they were collecting over $100k per day, and averaged over $40k per day for a long time. Those are pretty impressive numbers. During that time, paul elio told me in person that they had sold more vehicles the month before in the U.S.A. than Mitsubishi. Unfortunately, he has/had fallen victim to believing his own press releases. He hasn't sold any vehicles yet. Just t-shirts and bumper stickers. "Read the agreement", no obligation to build, to sell, nor to buy any vehicle.

Engineers are curious people. They like to try things out, to built and test, and try it again. The sales people apparently took over the company, and the engineers went into hiding. I've stated it before, but any engineer worth his salt would have tested the P3 and P4 for acceleration, handling, mileage, etc. They would have insisted that the exhaust system be repaired. They would have put a latch on the trunk right after the first show. They would be insisting on having the abs and traction control on test vehicles. They would have insisted on a build with production ride height. Unfettered, engineers would be happy to play with prototypes until the money ran out.

Sales people love the show, the glamor, the attention. The are good at separating prospects from their money. When the company finally realized that they could collect more money from the work of the sales/marketing force than from the engineers, all the focus moved to sales. Unfortunately, sales people usually aren't great money managers, and often spend it as fast as they make it. Especially if it's not their money.

Which brings us to the accounting/finance types. Good at managing money, or at least preserving what already exists. Ideally, they shoot for bang-for-the-buck, but often it just comes down to not liking to spend money.

Leadership and management need to coordinate these groups and play off the best of the capabilities of all of them, and the other members of the team. Unfortunately, the balance fell almost entirely to marketing. The company apparently had designers, but nobody to actually built and test the product. So no prototypes were built and tested. The marketing people got a couple of show circuit units. They made promises that the engineering types would have to keep, but never got the chance to build and test.

The original off-the-shelf project turned into a contradiction of the over-exuberant promises of the marketing people. The $150M needed to start the project in 2013 has now become $300M. No further development and testing has taken place for two years. I'm sure some CAD work has been happening behind the scenes, and the front suspension and bodywork has been tweaked, but no real world testing has happened.

So where is the company now? There is no public information as to how much of the $65M that has been claimed to have been raised is left. We have been told that $26M went to the plant equipment. At least $1M of the $30M private placement went to fees. Another $1M ($987K) went to the BoD. Another $1-2M in salaries for the last 2 years. T&E for the road show probably ate up at least another $.5M. According to Hector $1M went to the prototypes. At most that leaves about $30-35M before money is spent on the engine development, factory rent, and who knows what else.

From all appearances, they don't seem to have enough money to build another prototype. Which they claimed cost $100k, up until a couple of months ago, when the cost magically, a year after it was built, went up to $500k.

Anyway, I didn't mean to write a book. I haven't even started on the nonsensical arguments as to why they needed to build their own engine. That alone, without allowing for inflation, easily explains the increase from $150M to $300M needed to get the project off the ground. Did you hear paul explain that they could not buy the engine because engine manufacturers are capitalists and would want to make a profit on the engine? Where is he going to get the rest of the parts (off the shelf) and materials to build the vehicle? From communists? Everybody wants to make a profit. Without profit, businesses fail, and consumers have no product to buy.

If this forum wanted to be of value to elio motors, the members, who are supportive, should be asking the hard questions. Being able to answers the hard questions is the only hope elio has of making it to production. Misdirection and canned answers will work on low information voters, but they will not work on serious investors. It has worked repeatedly with the government, so it might work again there.

Feel free to dismiss me as a troll, or call me a fool, or part of some evil conspiracy if you wish. If the numbers don't work, money people will not invest. If the numbers work, but the wrong people are running the show, the money people will want control and will put in their own people.

Just... Stop...

 

[outsydthebox]

.....Anyway, I didn't mean to write a book....

Yes you do.
All of your questions have been answered numerous times. You are nothing new on this forum. We have heard it all before, and from many more intelligent than you.

 

[eliothegreat]

Yes you do.
All of your questions have been answered numerous times. You are nothing new on this forum. We have heard it all before, and from many more intelligent than you.

Thank you. I left off stupid. You are also free to call me stupid.

You are correct, what I'm saying is nothing new. It has all been pretty obvious for a long time to anyone paying attention. Sticking your fingers in your ears and singing kumbaya may help you feel better, but it won't get this project to production.

I had hoped that paul elio had decided to face reality on January 15, but instead he doubled down. It may not be too late to save the project, but there is no evidence of course correction.

 

[JEBar]

I don't trust elio because they have deliberately mislead and directed people into sending money without having a solid business plan.

Feel free to dismiss me as a troll, or call me a fool, or part of some evil conspiracy if you wish. If the numbers don't work, money people will not invest. If the numbers work, but the wrong people are running the show, the money people will want control and will put in their own people.

I don't believe you are a troll, I do believe that you don't trust EM and I also believe that distrust influences your thoughts about them .... as such it is clear you weave irrelevant commentary and try to present it as having merit .... your anger is clear so I ask again, why spend so much time and emotional effort in a project where you have nothing invested .... why would you want to do business with a company you feel that way about ..... why would you make such an intense effort to sew discontent among folks who don't share your view .... walk away and find something you can feel good about supporting or find a site where the majority share your views .... even your opening sentence in this latest comment starts out with something you can't prove, that being that EM doesn't have a solid business plan .... prove it

 

[eliothegreat]

I don't believe you are a troll, I do believe that you don't trust EM and I also believe that distrust influences your thoughts about them .... as such it is clear you weave irrelevant commentary and try to present it as having merit .... your anger is clear so I ask again, why spend so much time and emotional effort in a project where you have nothing invested .... why would you want to do business with a company you feel that way about ..... why would you make such an intense effort to sew discontent among folks who don't share your view .... walk away and find something you can feel good about supporting or find a site where the majority share your views .... even your opening sentence in this latest comment starts out with something you can't prove, that being that EM doesn't have a solid business plan .... prove it

Proof vs evidence.

Evidence -
1) They are out of money. At least their business plan did not generate the money necessary to implement the plan.
2) They have repeatedly failed to meet their published goals and targets.
3) They decided not to go with a proven, off-the-shelf engine, contrary to their stated business plan.

Proof - it is difficult to prove a negative. Some even argue that is is a logical fallacy. I can only offer evidence that the business plan they have is ineffective. So you are correct again, I cannot prove the elio motors has a solid business plan. Can you offer details of what this business plan is, and evidence of its solidity?

 

[84mpg]

Do you work for a PR firm that represents one of the big companies?

 

[JNR]

 

[JEBar]

Proof vs evidence.

Evidence -
1) They are out of money. At least their business plan did not generate the money necessary to implement the plan.
2) They have repeatedly failed to meet their published goals and targets.
3) They decided not to go with a proven, off-the-shelf engine, contrary to their stated business plan.

Proof - it is difficult to prove a negative. Some even argue that is is a logical fallacy. I can only offer evidence that the business plan they have is ineffective. So you are correct again, I cannot prove the elio motors has a solid business plan. Can you offer details of what this business plan is, and evidence of its solidity?

1) they are still in business so I don't see how one can't say they are out of money .... they have acknowledged that they are having funding issues that they are working on .... time will tell if they are successful or not .... hurling accusations isn't helpful
2) explanations for the delays have been given .... because you distrust them, you choose not to believe the reasons they give .... because I can't prove anything one way or the other and because I find the reasons given to be believable, I choose to give them the benefit of the doubt
3) they report having determined that going with a GEO engine would not give them the performance/mileage needed to meet their goals .... I choose to accept that explanation, you apparently do not ...

I have no clue as to the nature of their business plan but do know that to generate funding a plan is usually required .... as to its quality, I can't say and unlike you, don't choose to guess or make up something