Standard Equipment And Options

[CrimsonEclipse]

If the FBI can't hack an iPhone's encryption without the help of a world-class network security team, then I'm not worried about somebody casually stealing a phone-authorized car.

One has nothing to do with the other.

And it's already happened.

and you don't understand the FBI.

If the cars become self driving, someone will hack the system and have the car drive itself to a designated delivery point or hack shop.

I'm actually less worried about an autonomous car being moved and more concerned about it being used as a weapon.
A remotely controlled vehicle can be used to hit a target (soft target like a walking person or someone on a bicycle or a hard target like another vehicle), or made to impact a solid object with the target inside, or filled with things that go "bang" and driven to a target location.

Each technological revolution brings in "unintended consequences".
The faster the revolution, the more problems arise from short sighted communities.

Most of these automated systems lack layered and/or isolated cells for critical systems.
(driving motor, steering, brakes)

A simple wireless manual kill switch is something that is missing in almost all phones, computers, and now cars.

Since many new cars are also "drive by wire", meaning there is no mechanical link from the steering wheel to the steering rack, it may be impossible to override an errant or hostile steering command.

Your brakes are 1,000 time stronger than your engine. Have you ever seen someone do a burn out?

Security professionals have been doing this for years.

You can shut off a motor if it's in drive; it's restarting it you have to be in Neutral or Park.
You can do that on any car; the keyless ignitions are no different on that aspect.

You guys need to research the Toyota Prius runaway incidents.

These will only work if there is a mechanical link to the electrical and transmission and steering. The Prius had only drive by wire shifting and ignition. So you ended up with a 100mph runaway Prius. People died.

but what do i know:

http://www.zdnet.com/article/mitsubishi-outlander-car-alarm-can-be-hacked-through-wi-fi/

 

[NSTG8R]

You can shut off a motor if it's in drive; it's restarting it you have to be in Neutral or Park.
You can do that on any car; the keyless ignitions are no different on that aspect.

Actually, my wife's '07 Jeep Grand Cherokee had a recall that allowed the engine to shut down [completely]. Found out the hard way, three times, that if you're cruising along and engage the cruise control, then move your right knee to get if off the gas pedal, it is VERY easy to bump the key with your knee and shut vehicle off...even locks the steering wheel . LUCKILY all three times it happened to me I was heading down a straight stretch of highway and had a few seconds to figure out what happened and correct it by carefully turning the key back to the "on" position and restart the engine due to the speed of the vehicle [yes...an automatic will 'push start' if you're going fast enough]. I keyless system would obviously negate this dangerous condition/design flaw.

 

[Ty]

This was one of the features of my Volt that I was surprised I liked so much. No more fumbling for keys!

Does the car unlock as you approach it? I've never had a keyless entry car except for a rental once and in that one, I had to pull out the fob to unlock the door and once the "key" was in my hand, I no longer would have saved the fumbling part. If the door opened as I approached, I could see where that would be helpful.

 

[Ty]

Your brakes are 1,000 time stronger than your engine. Have you ever seen someone do a burn out?

I used to do those all the time in my old '65 Mustang with the 351W. But hey, when doing the burn out, it is only possible BECAUSE the engine is overpowering the brakes! Well, the back brakes, anyway. I did watch a news story where the reporter sat there and showed that the engine couldn't overpower the brakes on the Toyota in question. Maybe my Mustang just had horrible rear brakes. (Pretty sure it did)

 

[Maurtis]

Does the car unlock as you approach it? I've never had a keyless entry car except for a rental once and in that one, I had to pull out the fob to unlock the door and once the "key" was in my hand, I no longer would have saved the fumbling part. If the door opened as I approached, I could see where that would be helpful.

Some do, some do not. Our Kias and Hyundais have had a little black square on the door handle that you touch. If the doors are locked and the key fob is nearby (in your pocket or purse) the doors unlock when the button is touched. If the doors are unlocked, then they lock when the button is touched.

On our Toyota, the sensor is built into the inside of the door handle to unlock the doors as you pull the handle to open it. The lock button is separate, on top of the door handle.

 

[Rob Croson]

How often in your driving career have you had to actually do this? Not saying it doesn't happen, but if you are worried about it really happening...

I did it once by accident. It was a rental, and the seat/wheel wasn't quite adjusted right. I stretched while I was driving down the road and hit the key with my knee. Took me a couple seconds to realize I had turned off the ignition...

But I've never had to do it on purpose.

 

[Rob Croson]

Considering the throttle is computer-controlled as well, it wouldn't get "stuck".

Computer controls are irrelevant. There's a mechanical component in there somewhere, and where there's a mechanical component, it can get stuck. Also: Software isn't perfect. Bugs happen.

Not that I'm saying this is a likely scenario. I'm just saying that "It won't happen because it's computer controlled" really isn't a very supportable position.

 

[Sethodine]

Computer controls are irrelevant. There's a mechanical component in there somewhere, and where there's a mechanical component, it can get stuck. Also: Software isn't perfect. Bugs happen.

Not that I'm saying this is a likely scenario. I'm just saying that "It won't happen because it's computer controlled" really isn't a very supportable position.

I was saying that there is not a physical throttle cable to get physically stuck, unlike in older cars. If the throttle cable got stuck, then the entire rest of the engine "downstream" becomes slave to that single malfunction. The throttle cable can't tell the engine, "Hey, I'm stuck, so you should ignore me".
Modern electronic throttle control works differently; it is taking analog input from the floor pedal and converting it into a digital signal to the drive computer. The computer then determines the fuel+air mixture and adjusts the injection accordingly. Yes, there are individual mechanical components, but if any one should fail then the computer immediately knows it and will either compensate ("limp home" mode) or will shut down completely. If the computer itself ceases to function, then the car simply doesn't run.

Again, as I said in my original post, this isn't a fool-proof system. But since it is reliant on the computer software, it means you can run that software through millions of hours of simulated driving scenarios and mechanical failure responses, all while not endangering any people or hardware. This is called "stress testing", and is used to find fatal flaws in the programming before they cause a fatality In Real Life.

 

[WilliamH]

I was saying that there is not a physical throttle cable to get physically stuck, unlike in older cars. If the throttle cable got stuck, then the entire rest of the engine "downstream" becomes slave to that single malfunction. The throttle cable can't tell the engine, "Hey, I'm stuck, so you should ignore me".
Modern electronic throttle control works differently; it is taking analog input from the floor pedal and converting it into a digital signal to the drive computer. The computer then determines the fuel+air mixture and adjusts the injection accordingly. Yes, there are individual mechanical components, but if any one should fail then the computer immediately knows it and will either compensate ("limp home" mode) or will shut down completely. If the computer itself ceases to function, then the car simply doesn't run.

Again, as I said in my original post, this isn't a fool-proof system. But since it is reliant on the computer software, it means you can run that software through millions of hours of simulated driving scenarios and mechanical failure responses, all while not endangering any people or hardware. This is called "stress testing", and is used to find fatal flaws in the programming before they cause a fatality In Real Life.

The results of any testing are only as good as logic rules that the software engineer can test for.
Back in the 80's I was writing an "expert" system for AT&T.
In one chain I actually got to a point where there was no definite solution.
As a result, I wrote an error message that said "If you get this message contact the developer! We need to talk!"
In the next two years I never got that call, but it was the only possible way to find a solution.

 

[btg]

Considering the throttle is computer-controlled as well, it wouldn't get "stuck". If the computer locked up or ceased functioning, then it would stop sending an accelleration signal to the engine. Most computer programming is designed to "stop on malfunction" as a safeguard against situations like runaway accelleration.
That is not to say that malfunctions will never happen. But another advantage to computer-control, is that you can stress-test computers without them being physically plugged into a moving vehicle, whereas mechanical systems can only be tested while in use. Remember that huge GM recall a couple years ago, when keys were getting nudged out of the ignition due to a manufacturing defect? Cars lost power and careened off the road because of no power steering/power brake assist. At least with computers, you can test the programming in a virtual environment before deploying the technology into the real world.

My co-worker has one of those cars. The problem/fix is ridiculous. Basically if you have a heavy key chain it causes problems so the fix in the recall is to plug the hole in the key to make it impossible to put it on a key chain. What kid of fix is that? Oh yeah.... it's a fix to get people to lose their keys so then they have to spend more money replacing them... I might add my co-worker never did have the recall work done...