I Shall Call It "total Enviormental Impact!"

[CrimsonEclipse]

Ok, one last time.

Electric cars are the future. The end.

Are electric cars more efficient that ICE cars assuming similar size and aerodynamic values.
Yes, by far.

Are power plants, of any kind more efficient than a group of ICE cars.
Yes, by far.

Are Electric cars more environmentally friendly.
Shrugs. Presently, that's a hit or miss and open to perception.
For the long haul, electric beats ICE by far.

Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) fuel cycle.
Oil is drilled from locations hostile to the USA, and/or environmentally sensitive areas, transported half way around the world by ship (requiring fuel), refined (requiring fuel), transported again by truck (more fuel), then to a gas station near you. About 25% of the oil is consumed from start to finish (to the pump)

Electric Engine Fuel Cycle.
Coal is mined in the USA (bad for environment), transported within the USA (less distance and more efficient), burned to make electricity (environment again), electricity charges car.
Or nuclear, mined (environment) in the USA, transported and refined in the USA, consumed (environment) and produces electricity.

Winner, electric.
No hostile countries. This is HUGE. If this doesn't kick you out of your seat, then you have been asleep for the past 50 years and all of this Mid east crap (honestly longer). If you add the defense expenditure to your total fuel cost, it would probably add $2-5/gallon.
In the future, electricity will be produced by more (not all) but MORE environmentally friendly sources. Solar, wind, and fusion (it is coming)
So when? Like all technologies, the road has pitfalls. Electrical sources are only getting better. Oil sources are, and never have been good.

B-b-but lithium is bad for the environment and requires more energy to refine than oil.
Um. no. it doesn't. I don't know where to start with this myth. It's just silly. Lithium was considered waste by many mines. It can be easily recycled and refined, and quite frankly, it's merely a gateway to a higher level power supply: Capacitors.

Is the Elio more environmentally friendly than an electrical car?
Well first you have to find an electric equivalent.
The Elio is using existing technology to make an inexpensive car. It is using lego pieces that are all well established in a new pattern that is cheap to produce, in a configuration that is energy efficient, and simple simple simple.
There are no electrical comparisons. Why?
There is no massive parts infrastructure to draw on.

But more importantly, is a power plant with 1-5 generators running at optimal power settings more efficient that 1,000's of cars at 20-40% power or idling in traffic?
Goodness no. I mean, it's not even close. It's laughable.

But let's be honest. There is NO comparison to the Elio, except an EV Elio.
If/when that happens, then and only then will a proper comparison occur.

In the mean time, let's dispense with the often disproved ideas of the EVIL electric cars.

But who perpetuates these childish myths for the general public with seemingly sound "science"?
Answer: Do a search on Elio. Check the first 1-5 links and you'll find some MASSIVE negative pages DEDICATED to making the business model of the Elio look horrible. These are made by paid professional Shills. They are also the same people who have convinced you that a new car should AVERAGE $30,000 and should last only 5 years.

In our next episode:
Why Big Auto Makers fear the electric car and have convinced you to do the same.

 

[JEBar]

Ok, one last time.

Electric cars are the future. The end.

in the future, for light duty, short to moderate distance use I agree .... granted, at my age saying I probably won't live to see something ain't really saying all that much but I don't see electric powered vehicles in heavy use applications .... applications like towing heavy loads over long distances on a 24/7 schedule .... see the picture in my signature ... what I hope to live long enough to see is a government that encourages oil/gas exploration within our country which in a short order can put an end to dependence on foreign oil for many years to come .... in those years I hope we can develop technologies that aren't available today .... for most applications ICE powered vehicles are still the best thing going right now and that ain't gonna change any time soon

Jim

 

[tonyspumoni]

CrimsonEclipse,

Not quite sure where you are going with your arguments. No one here said that EV vehicles are not the eventual wave of the future. We seem here to loosely agree that they are not the wave of the present if you care about minimizing the burning of fossil fuels, for reasons already stated about motive force, electricity sourcing, and battery technologies.

Lithium is not likely to be long term solution as a high capacity battery electrolyte. It requires 99.5% - 99.9% purity for use in vehicles and thus, while it is indeed everywhere, it is only currently extractable in economically feasible concentrations in a couple of places on earth and those places are not in the U.S., though that is somewhat besides the point. It cost around $350 a ton in the early 2000's and is now more like $8500 a ton for EV-grade material. A large EV vehicle uses upwards of 40 kg. So before we can have your EV car en masse at a cost most can bear, we will need new battery tecnology.

http://www.globalstrategicmetalsnl.com/_content/documents/405.pdf

I will restate my case: in terms of current fossil fuel use to make, drive, and dispose of a vehicle, the Elio beats every EV vehicle currently made. If you can disupte this, please cite your sources. We need a solution that spans the gap between EV vehciles that can be made affordably and our current gas-guzzling ICE-powered vehicles. Nothing seems more poised to accomplish this than the Elio.

 

[eddie66]

in the future, for light duty, short to moderate distance use I agree .... granted, at my age saying I probably won't live to see something ain't really saying all that much but I don't see electric powered vehicles in heavy use applications .... applications like towing heavy loads over long distances on a 24/7 schedule .... see the picture in my signature ... what I hope to live long enough to see is a government that encourages oil/gas exploration within our country which in a short order can put an end to dependence on foreign oil for many years to come .... in those years I hope we can develop technologies that aren't available today .... for most applications ICE powered vehicles are still the best thing going right now and that ain't gonna change any time soon

Jim

I fracking agree whole heartedly

 

[Smitty901]

You will still burn fuel to make electric power. Wind and sun will not even make a dent in demand. And add charging our cars with it would make it many times harder to supply enough.
All electric power is currently subsidized by tax payers in one way or another. Delivery of centrally produce power over long distances results in waste.
Generate to much it is wasted ,generate to little people go with out.
An ELIO type car that gets every bit of power from a gallon it can is the best way to reduce. Sticking a battery in a car and then claiming it gets 50 mpg is a scam.
Put a small engine in a light weight car with enough room to cover your needs, enough power to move at highway speeds with out taking all day to get there. Keep refining it to save weight and reduce unnecessary power , then you will see what efficient means .
VW did it with the 80's Rabbit diesel bit of a dog bare bones as it could get but the thing did get 62 MPG with out any problem.

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

in the future, for light duty, short to moderate distance use I agree .... granted, at my age saying I probably won't live to see something ain't really saying all that much but I don't see electric powered vehicles in heavy use applications .... applications like towing heavy loads over long distances on a 24/7 schedule .... see the picture in my signature ... what I hope to live long enough to see is a government that encourages oil/gas exploration within our country which in a short order can put an end to dependence on foreign oil for many years to come .... in those years I hope we can develop technologies that aren't available today .... for most applications ICE powered vehicles are still the best thing going right now and that ain't gonna change any time soon

Jim

I don't see the Elio towing heavy loads either.

What is "most applications"?
Elio is based on most applications too. Single driver, minimal cargo, to work and errands.
An electrical car with a 100 mile range will cover 95% of auto purposes.
Will an EV replace trucks? (full sized or pickups?) not for a while.

CrimsonEclipse,

Not quite sure where you are going with your arguments. No one here said that EV vehicles are not the eventual wave of the future. We seem here to loosely agree that they are not the wave of the present if you care about minimizing the burning of fossil fuels, for reasons already stated about motive force, electricity sourcing, and battery technologies.

Lithium is not likely to be long term solution as a high capacity battery electrolyte. It requires 99.5% - 99.9% purity for use in vehicles and thus, while it is indeed everywhere, it is only currently extractable in economically feasible concentrations in a couple of places on earth and those places are not in the U.S., though that is somewhat besides the point. It cost around $350 a ton in the early 2000's and is now more like $8500 a ton for EV-grade material. A large EV vehicle uses upwards of 40 kg. So before we can have your EV car en masse at a cost most can bear, we will need new battery tecnology.

http://www.globalstrategicmetalsnl.com/_content/documents/405.pdf

I will restate my case: in terms of current fossil fuel use to make, drive, and dispose of a vehicle, the Elio beats every EV vehicle currently made. If you can disupte this, please cite your sources. We need a solution that spans the gap between EV vehciles that can be made affordably and our current gas-guzzling ICE-powered vehicles. Nothing seems more poised to accomplish this than the Elio.

ICE systems require more moving parts, each need to be manufactured and costing time and energy.
Just compare a normal inline 4 engine with 100's of moving parts with a modern electrical motor. (1 moving part)
Make (build)
The battery is slightly more difficult to manufacturer and the EV motor is easier and less expensive. It's a bit of a wash.
Bring the economy of mass production and the price gets better.
Drive.
EV wins... already mentioned this.... alot.
Dispose.
How is anything on an EV difficult to dispose? There's less to dispose of!
Oh, the battery?
Mostly recyclable. (as previously mentioned)

oh, and making EV grade Lithium can happen anywhere. That's not geographically relevant.
I'll leave the battery technology to Tesla Motors. They see the future.

As for mining, it can happen anywhere, even in the USA, but it is most common in certain South American countries, which is geographically AND politically much easier to deal with by an order of magnitude.

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

You will still burn fuel to make electric power. Wind and sun will not even make a dent in demand. And add charging our cars with it would make it many times harder to supply enough.
All electric power is currently subsidized by tax payers in one way or another. Delivery of centrally produce power over long distances results in waste.
Generate to much it is wasted ,generate to little people go with out.
An ELIO type car that gets every bit of power from a gallon it can is the best way to reduce. Sticking a battery in a car and then claiming it gets 50 mpg is a scam.
Put a small engine in a light weight car with enough room to cover your needs, enough power to move at highway speeds with out taking all day to get there. Keep refining it to save weight and reduce unnecessary power , then you will see what efficient means .
VW did it with the 80's Rabbit diesel bit of a dog bare bones as it could get but the thing did get 62 MPG with out any problem.

Wind and Sun DO make a dent, and can easily account for 25% of the electricity.
And that's just today....

As for the rest of the argument... I don't understand your point.

 

[RKing]

I have no idea which is "The Most Green" ,but I do know that many of the people interested in the Elio are not interested in an EV. The reason is cost, pure and simple. AND these same people are frequently driving ,old inefficient beaters (like me). I want to reduce my impact on the environment, but not at the price of EVs. Would love to have one for the efficiency, but total cost of ownership is outragious. They are presently ,and in the short term future, just plain out of reach to most people. The Volt has possiabilities but cost ,,,,REALLY, no thanks. THe Leaf is nice, expensive but nice. Now ,it won't make my commute distance reliabily. Also in the winter, even worse, and I refuse to drive something that may "run out of gas" unexpectedly, especially in cold weather. The Elio can replace 60,000 12 to 30 MPG veihicles each year. No EV is going to do that in the next decade. I agree that EV may very well be the future, but it is a long way away, and "gas" has to get very expensive before that happens. Dollars and sense for the common man, make it easy(less cost) to be "green" and more will come. Better to have 60,000 Elio's than 5000 Teslas and 55,000 Crown Vics. Elio is the "bird in the hand" EVs (great as they may be) are still the "bird in the bush"

 

[JEBar]

I don't see the Elio towing heavy loads either.

What is "most applications"?
Elio is based on most applications too. Single driver, minimal cargo, to work and errands.
An electrical car with a 100 mile range will cover 95% of auto purposes.
Will an EV replace trucks? (full sized or pickups?) not for a while.

Elio is not designed to meet most applications .... in fact, it is designed for use in a very narrow band of applications .... the point being made is ICE vs EL, Elio has nothing to do with that part of the discussion .... ICE powered vehicles not only can but are proven to work in all automotive applications .... EV's are the ones that operate in a limited ban of applications .... they are fine for those who want them but they are not a do all/end all .... they may handle a 100 mile range but they can't handle a 100 mile range for hauling large families or moving goods from one point to another .... they will get better but at this point they fall in the hypothetical arena, ICE's fall in proven arena .... I'm not against EV's I have one that I'm trying to sell but I'm also not blinded by overlooking their limitations

Jim

 

[tonyspumoni]

I don't see the Elio towing heavy loads either.

As for mining, it can happen anywhere, even in the USA, but it is most common in certain South American countries, which is geographically AND politically much easier to deal with by an order of magnitude.

The reason lithium is not mined everywhere is that refining it is a tedious process that requires a great deal of energy - the more concetrated it is (like in the salt flats in Chile) the less FOSSIL FUEL it takes to pull it out of the ground and the less FOSSIL FUEL it takes to refine further to the 99.5% purity it needs to be for your batteries. There is highly likely to be gold in your yard too, but to get it in useful quantities is really hard, valuable though it is.

And if not from coal and natural gas, as now, where will the electricity come from that will be stored in these batteries of yours? Nuclear? Solar? Wind? Geothermal? Possibly, though only the first and last can provide power 24/7 and only the first in any location. If solar, then we will have to have....um, batteries to store energy for when the sun doesn't shine (night) or where it doesn't shine at all (Boston, September thru March).

Until we stop getting the majority of our electricity from fossil fuels, EV's are an environmental shell game - they derive their motive force from coal and natural gas burned far away rather than locally, in the car. An EV Elio would, using current battery technologies, weigh considerably more than the ICE-powered version, thereby requiring MORE power to accelerate and maintain propulsive force (that dang pesky physics again) and, with that darn 6% transmission loss (hard to get away from that either, unless we have more wish-think going on) your EV is already 6% down. According to (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density), gasoline has an energy density of 44.4 megajoules/kilo. And today's best rechargeable lithium ion batteries? Between 0.36 and .85 MJ/kg. So you'd need a battery weighing at least 44 times more than your tank of gas to garner equivalent motive force. Will lithium batteries continue to improve? Sure. But even an order of magnitude increase is regarded as unlikely and that would still pale in comparison to gas. Current EV's mitigate this discrepency by sacrificing range, like the guy at Laguna Seca who brings his Tesla along with a diesel generator on a flatbed. Oh, and according to reputable sources, it costs about $0.03 per gallon to transport oil from drilling pipe to car tank, though it does cost money to refine it from crude to refined gas.

When 100% of our electricity comes from non-fossil fuels, then we can have EV's that are not actually a worse environmental solution that using an ICE. Til then, EV's are a terrible solution to reducing the burning of fossil fuels.