Electric Vehicle Thoughts, Questions & Answers

[raptor213]

They said it was this week in the first video post: "Want a quick peak under the hood? Storm wanted to share a few videos from his trip to Italy this week. Our design team is hard at work! (Video #1)"

I heard and saw the wheel slip too and asked about it on their FB page, I am betting it is still RWD and they have not switched to FWD yet. That is just speculation, though.

If it is from a very recent trip, and it's still configured as a RWD with the in-hub motor, then I question the timeline offered up last November when a Facebook post hinted at test drives in North America becoming a possibility in early summer 2019. I really hope progress is being made.

Given that the Sondors website for many months has listed FWD as standard and AWD as a potential future option, I have always been under the impression that the drivetrain decision had already been solidified, and the new choices result in additional engineering, testing, calibration, etc for related electronic systems (traction control, stability control, perhaps a unique anti-sway control) as well as motor hardware placement for proper fit, function, anti-vibration, cooling, maintenance/repair access, etc. I thought that was the real justification for taking the vehicle to Italy in the first place.

Plus I believe there is only one concept/prototype vehicle in existence. It essentially needs to be reverse-engineered in order to establish an itemized total parts count, sub-assembly designs, and everything else that goes into taking this dream from a one-off widget to something that has a bill of materials and mass production plan so that Storm can start approaching manufacturing partners with real numbers.

 

[raptor213]

I admit, comparing the design and development processes of the various autocycle competitors is mind-boggling.

We've watched Elio build <5 hand-made prototypes, start down the path of making <5 hand-made E1-series testing vehicles, never able to assemble 18 factory-built E2-series testing vehicles, and have an eventual plan of rolling out 158 S1-series factory-built pre-production vehicles for further testing and assembly process confirmation prior to reaching final production readiness for customer vehicle deliveries...

Then we could dissect the Solo path to manufacturability, the Arcimoto path to manufacturability, and the Sondors path to manufacturability...

... one of these things is not like the other ...

 

[Maurtis]

I test drove the FWD Arcimoto FUV and it was an absolute blast. My daily is a RWD Miata, but have not driven a three wheeled rear drive vehicle yet. But living in central Texas I am sure it would be fine but would still prefer FWD just for wet weather performance. Not a deal breaker, just a preference. There is a HUGE difference in traction when driving in the rain between my RWD Miata and my FWD Mazda3, but neither have traction or stability control. Sondors said theirs will, so that is something.

I agree that I think the prototype pictured is the only one. When they originally targeted April 2019 (two years ago) as their production date, it seemed WAY too aggressive. Then when they modified the schedule for just test drives in summer 2019 last November, that seemed reasonable if they were nearing the end of the initial engineering phase on the prototype. In that post we only got a few pictures of the prototype in the engineering bay.

But two months later, if they still are running with the RWD hub motor but planning on still going FWD, I think they will be really hard pressed to finish the engineering and whip out a few more test drive mules by this summer.

It is great to see them making progress with our money (I got in on the second round of stock sales), but I think it is as others had expected: making autocycles is much harder than making electric bicycles. Anyone can put together off-the-shelf parts and make a cheap electric bicycle, I built two of them for myself and my wife. Making an autocycle is much more complicated, especially when more of the parts are not already made and ready without modification.

 

[Rickb]

I test drove the FWD Arcimoto FUV and it was an absolute blast. My daily is a RWD Miata, but have not driven a three wheeled rear drive vehicle yet. But living in central Texas I am sure it would be fine but would still prefer FWD just for wet weather performance. Not a deal breaker, just a preference. There is a HUGE difference in traction when driving in the rain between my RWD Miata and my FWD Mazda3, but neither have traction or stability control. Sondors said theirs will, so that is something.

I agree that I think the prototype pictured is the only one. When they originally targeted April 2019 (two years ago) as their production date, it seemed WAY too aggressive. Then when they modified the schedule for just test drives in summer 2019 last November, that seemed reasonable if they were nearing the end of the initial engineering phase on the prototype. In that post we only got a few pictures of the prototype in the engineering bay.

But two months later, if they still are running with the RWD hub motor but planning on still going FWD, I think they will be really hard pressed to finish the engineering and whip out a few more test drive mules by this summer.

It is great to see them making progress with our money (I got in on the second round of stock sales), but I think it is as others had expected: making autocycles is much harder than making electric bicycles. Anyone can put together off-the-shelf parts and make a cheap electric bicycle, I built two of them for myself and my wife. Making an autocycle is much more complicated, especially when more of the parts are not already made and ready without modification.

My first car a rear wheel drive ‘59 VW had better traction than my years later front and AWD Audi’s. The VW’s traction advantage was the rear mounted engine weight on a light weight car. I doubt that would be the case with SONDORs single rear wheel in hub motor and the instant ev torque would require gentle acceleration or would simply spin on on ice/snow conditions, although not a concern in your Texas climate.

I was impressed with SONDORS initial sweet prototype build process, however, they didn’t provide prototype testing stats or test drive opportunity, and now can’t seem to decide on the rear, front, or AWD option with little progress and info since the initial build, which raises a red flag for me. I question the SONDORs Prototype performance and handling characteristics of the unproven single rear wheel in-hub motor pushing the wide front/wedge shaped styling of the SONDORs. Front wheel drive seems more desirable, but adds to the msrp. Also, comparing specs and target pricing of the $11,900 USA manufactured FUV and the $15K China manufactured SOLO there is no possibility of a $10K base model USA or China manufactured SONDORs. It was SONDORs EV cheap pricepoint that got people excited, much like with the ELIO’s initial $6800 marketing campaign. IMO

 

[3wheelin]

My first car a rear wheel drive ‘59 VW had better traction than my years later front and AWD Audi’s. The VW’s traction advantage was the rear mounted engine weight on a light weight car. I doubt that would be the case with SONDORs single rear wheel in hub motor and the instant ev torque would require gentle acceleration or would simply spin on on ice/snow conditions, although not a concern in your Texas climate.

I was impressed with SONDORS initial sweet prototype build process, however, they didn’t provide prototype testing stats or test drive opportunity, and now can’t seem to decide on the rear, front, or AWD option with little progress and info since the initial build, which raises a red flag for me. I question the SONDORs Prototype performance and handling characteristics of the unproven single rear wheel in-hub motor pushing the wide front/wedge shaped styling of the SONDORs. Front wheel drive seems more desirable, but adds to the msrp. Also, comparing specs and target pricing of the $11,900 USA manufactured FUV and the $15K China manufactured SOLO there is no possibility of a $10K base model USA or China manufactured SONDORs. It was SONDORs EV cheap pricepoint that got people excited, much like with the ELIO’s initial $6800 marketing campaign. IMO

Very true. Most often than not, if it's too good to be true..... also noticing that the Sondor was tube framed which is expensive, labor intensive and not ideal for mass production.

 

[RSchneider]

Very true. Most often than not, if it's too good to be true..... also noticing that the Sondor was tube framed which is expensive, labor intensive and not ideal for mass production.

Tube frame is labor intensive and expensive. It depends on what Sondors is thinking the number they need to make per year and the labor costs at the plant. If you are like Polaris and make your three wheeler in Alabama (along with other Polaris products) and plan to sell about 10K units per year, then their price structure works. If the Slingshot was built in it's own exclusive plant and had to make 250K per year, they would have to go for a much higher price due to the labor cost.

I'd suspect that the labor cost in China is low and they are not looking at over 20K per year for the production rate. So, the tube frame works. Since Elio is planning on making one single product out of a plant in the US and expecting to sell 125K to 250K per year, tube frame makes no sense. Even if Elio built their car in a USMCA plant (i.e. Mexico) then they would have a hard time due to how much they would have to pay the workers as opposed to a few years ago. With all of the Chinese Tariffs coming, Sondors will have a harder time. So a plant in AL or MS would be a good choice and build their bikes there too. That way, the costs are lower.

 

[RSchneider]

Found this today and forgot about them actually. So this is the Electric pickup Truck and SUV. From my experience, looks quite production ready. Plus made in USA (Normal, IL).

Plus local workers getting excited for their once shut down plant:
http://www.wglt.org/post/plant-finds-second-life-rivian-and-so-do-ex-mitsubishi-workers.

Website: https://products.rivian.com/

 

[Mel]

Found this today and forgot about them actually. So this is the Electric pickup Truck and SUV. From my experience, looks quite production ready. Plus made in USA (Normal, IL).

Plus local workers getting excited for their once shut down plant:
http://www.wglt.org/post/plant-finds-second-life-rivian-and-so-do-ex-mitsubishi-workers.
Website: https://products.rivian.com/

It could probably be uglier, but I'm not sure how!

 

[RSchneider]

It could probably be uglier, but I'm not sure how!

It'e not the prettiest thing out there but it'll be interesting how it works out. With Elio coming on line and as company like this, it'll me interesting to see how one that has zero buyers works out.

Here's another video of the truck. Does this seem like something you'd buy?

 

[Mel]

It'e not the prettiest thing out there but it'll be interesting how it works out. With Elio coming on line and as company like this, it'll me interesting to see how one that has zero buyers works out.
Here's another video of the truck. Does this seem like something you'd buy?

Absolutely not! I know there are people out there that might like this truck, but not me. Storage is nice except for a couple of things. The spare tire should be in front. Why would you want your spare to be located under your load? You would have to completely unload your vehicle to change a tire. The flashlight in the door is not very practical. The most common use I have of a flashlight is to see into the mailbox when I come home at night. I don't want to have to open the door to get at it. Besides the fact that it has to be the ugliest thing on the road. Range of a gas driven truck? My Chevy goes 600 miles on a tank and I can fill it up at almost any intersection. But that's just me! YMMV.