Electric Elio May Be Closer Than You Think. Or Not.

[Sethodine]

Israel's Dolphin-class subs use Lithium-ion.

Ion, or Iron? Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO3) don't have quite the capacity of lithium ion, but they don't have the same fire/exploding problems and they have a deeper cycle than Li-Ion. I don't see why anybody would choose Li-Ion over LiFePO3, at least when compared to Lead-Acid.

 

[johnsnownw]

Ion, or Iron? Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO3) don't have quite the capacity of lithium ion, but they don't have the same fire/exploding problems and they have a deeper cycle than Li-Ion. I don't see why anybody would choose Li-Ion over LiFePO3, at least when compared to Lead-Acid.

Lithium-ion. Not all chemistries of Li-ion are equally fire prone. Here's some information on the batteries:

http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2015/02/possible-technical-issues-with-soryu.html

These are not specifically related to the ones in the Israeli subs, but gives some pros and cons of the tech.

 

[Rob Croson]

Israel's Dolphin-class subs use Lithium-ion.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but the info I have seen disagrees with you.

http://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/israel-submarine-capabilities/

"The modernized Dolphin-class combines a conventional diesel lead-acid battery system and an air-independent propulsion system (AIP), which makes the vessel extremely quiet and allows it to remain submerged for up to a week without surfacing."

But this conversion is way OT for the electric Elio thread.

 

[Muzhik]

Also, lead acid batteries serve a much-needed role in submarines: ballast.

I thought that's what the Seaman First Class was for...

BTW, thanks for being someone with actual knowledge commenting on this topic. I just have the Internet and different magazines to rely on. My biggest fear isn't China getting an aircraft carrier (less than 5 years from now), but active development of non-nuclear powered submarines. Both items to be used to project force beyond their shores.

 

[Rob Croson]

The seaman first class did a good job mess cranking. The midis made better ballast.

I was an electrician on a nuclear submarine, so i have a bit of knowledge about submarine batteries. Battery care and maintenance was one of my jobs. You had to be specifically trained and qualified to be allowed to charge the battery. You didn't just plug it in and wait til it beeped to tell you it was done. It was a serious evolution that, if done wrong, would land you in a heap of trouble.

They are extremely powerful, and can be dangerous if improperly cared for. That is a LOT of energy stored there. Treat it right, and it can save your life. Along with the lives of everyone else on board. Which is why the military won't be so quick to jump up and use the latest flavor of the day with exotic batteries that haven't proven themselves. Naval design works slow, but with a purpose and reason to its madness.

 

[johnsnownw]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but the info I have seen disagrees with you.

http://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/israel-submarine-capabilities/

"The modernized Dolphin-class combines a conventional diesel lead-acid battery system and an air-independent propulsion system (AIP), which makes the vessel extremely quiet and allows it to remain submerged for up to a week without surfacing."

But this conversion is way OT for the electric Elio thread.

Ha, no doubt. I'll only add that there does indeed seem to be conflicting information...and the references I have seen seem to be speaking specifically about the Tanin submarine. *shrugs*

 

[Muzhik]

But this conversion is way OT for the electric Elio thread.

Ummm... perhaps... You have to admit that once these technologies get shaken out ("BETA! We hardly knew ye") they will have a major impact on commercial EV development, of which Elio might want to partake.

 

[Sethodine]

I thought that's what the Seaman First Class was for...

BTW, thanks for being someone with actual knowledge commenting on this topic. I just have the Internet and different magazines to rely on. My biggest fear isn't China getting an aircraft carrier (less than 5 years from now), but active development of non-nuclear powered submarines. Both items to be used to project force beyond their shores.

Uhhh, China already has an aircraft carrier. It uses a "ski jump" instead of a catapult to launch aircraft.

But, we got the USS Gerald R Ford and DDG 1000 Zumwalt

P.S: Something about an electric Elio.

 

[Lil4X]

Practical fuel cell technology may be on the horizon for electric vehicle applications. Nearly 20 years ago a company produced a "micro fuel cell" for use on commercial video cameras. The Anton-Bauer "brick" Ni-Cad was the go-to technology of the day - weighing in at about five pounds and providing power for the camera and tape deck for about 20-30 minutes before it had to be "refueled". The first articles available used hydrogen as fuel, but recharging them was a pain. You ended up keeping a grip busy recharging spent cells while clipping on a new one to continue your shoot. Later models incorporated a cartridge you just plugged in and punctured to deliver hydrogen to the cell. Theoretically they were cost-effective (versus the cost of shutting down production for a few hours to get your battery packs recharged), but they were more of a gee-wiz gizmo than a practical source of electric power. It was pretty cool to see your "battery pack" silently chuffing up little puffs of steam while it made power.

But out in the real world, they were expensive. First touted as an "instantly rechargeable" power source, it became apparent that multiple Li-Ions were far more practical, and eventually the product failed. I'd take five batteries (at about $300 ea.) with me on field shoots, and by keeping a 4-battery charger running constantly (often via an inverter to the car battery to give me 110vac), I could run about four hours before having to relay batteries on and off the charger a little too quickly to be practical. But that's OK . . . a little judicious use of the camera's "off" switch allowed me to shoot all day on four or five batteries. It was still cheaper than a micro fuel cell - and I could make my own juice by starting the car.

But the fuel cell market has changed largely because today's portable power requirements are far lower. You can own a fuel cell for charging your phone for under $100. OK, it's going to be slow, but it's a good option - so long as you are carrying plenty of small hydrogen fuel cartridges.

Just think what that same technology could bring to electric cars. We've had fuel cells since the early days of manned spaceflight, but the size and weight is coming down dramatically. If you can provide 500 mA out of a brick-sized cell - and do it as long as you have a source of hydrogen - engineering a lightweight EV with reasonable performance should be only a few years away. Now to make the technology affordable at full scale . . . . that may take a while.

 

[Coss]

Uhhh, China already has an aircraft carrier. It uses a "ski jump" instead of a catapult to launch aircraft.

But, we got the USS Gerald R Ford and DDG 1000 Zumwalt

P.S: Something about an electric Elio.

The picture on the bottom is not a Chinese Ship; it's the newest destroyer the USS Zumwalt . Her Captain is James A. Kirk