Does The Elio *have* To Sell In High Volume To Succeed?

[Maurtis]

But...

Isn't a slow charge the better way (healthier for the battery pack) to charge batteries?
At least that's the way it was with old school tech.
In the past, it's been... The faster you charge, the more heat there is, and the faster you wear the batteries out.

Yes, the but charge rate depends on the batteries. The lithiums I use on my electric bike are rated at a max charge rate of 25 amps and max discharge rate of 100 amps. They are 5AH batteries, and the safe usable amount is around 66% of capacity. So if I wanted to charge them to full using the max rated charge rate it would only take me 8 minutes.

In my garage I charge at 5 amps, which I would consider a slow charge. So say if you had a medium charge rate of 10 amps and a fast charge rate of 15 amps, you would still be well below the max charge rate of the batteries and within the safe charging limits no matter which option you chose.

 

[Marshall]

But that's just it, the infrastructure really ISN'T the problem. People only think that it is, because they are so used to relying on gasoline infrastructure.
98% of my charging is done at home. And charging speed at public stations is dependent on the car's equipment more than it is the station.
The larger your inverter/charger is, the faster your car can guzzle electricity. From a 50 amp 220v single-phase socket (standard for RV hookups nationwide) you could recharge a Nissan Leaf from empty to full battery in under 100 minutes. I know, because people have done it. It just takes adding on a few aftermarket chargers, because the one Nissan sells with the car is not up to the task.
BRUSA has a new charger that is capable of adding 22kw of charging power to a car--compare that to the paltry 3.3kw inverter that came with my Leaf. That would increase my charge time by 6x. With 25.3kw of charging power, I could completely charge my 24kw battery in under an hour.

Now, "under and hour" doesn't compare to the couple minutes it takes to refill a gas tank on a car. But as battery pack power also increases, then pretty soon the only time you will ever need to recharge your car is when you get home at night, or when you are on long road trips. So my point still stands--it is less about what infrastructure is out there, and more about what is "under the hood".

I understand your love of the Electric. But 100 minute refills are a problem for traveling away from the city. This is what keeps it a niche market and not a replacement vehicle for most. It's not culture unless time lost to refill is something you think of as cultural rather than simply pragmatic.

I suspect you've spent the bulk of your life near your job and cannot fully grasp traveling distances as a part of your job and commute. If you have done this, then I'm shocked you don't understand. If 98% of your driving is done close to home, you just don't get what it's like out here in the rest of America.

 

[Marshall]

Nope.
The loan guarantee language says something on the order of...
There can't be any other government funding involved other than (nor in addition to) the guaranteed loan.

Shorthand: You can't stack subsidies.

 

[outsydthebox]

Yes, after the nut, bolts, and washers are specified, but certainly not back in 2007 when the ESTMATED base $6800 was tossed around for the Elio concept sketched on a napkin. The raw materials and labor costs of vehicles I've purchased since 2007 have not gone down.

Uhm, yes they have. The problem is, auto makers don't lower their prices, they increase their profit margins.
This is where EM is different. keeping their profits on the "lean side" keeps the competition away.

 

[outsydthebox]

But that's just it, the infrastructure really ISN'T the problem. People only think that it is, because they are so used to relying on gasoline infrastructure.
98% of my charging is done at home. And charging speed at public stations is dependent on the car's equipment more than it is the station.
The larger your inverter/charger is, the faster your car can guzzle electricity. From a 50 amp 220v single-phase socket (standard for RV hookups nationwide) you could recharge a Nissan Leaf from empty to full battery in under 100 minutes. I know, because people have done it. It just takes adding on a few aftermarket chargers, because the one Nissan sells with the car is not up to the task.
BRUSA has a new charger that is capable of adding 22kw of charging power to a car--compare that to the paltry 3.3kw inverter that came with my Leaf. That would increase my charge time by 6x. With 25.3kw of charging power, I could completely charge my 24kw battery in under an hour.

Now, "under and hour" doesn't compare to the couple minutes it takes to refill a gas tank on a car. But as battery pack power also increases, then pretty soon the only time you will ever need to recharge your car is when you get home at night, or when you are on long road trips. So my point still stands--it is less about what infrastructure is out there, and more about what is "under the hood".

Altho I respect your passion and your knowledge on the subject, to say, "get a bigger charger" doesn't address the fact that the nations power grid has been operating at (or near) capacity for years.
That is the part of the infrastructure that isn't ready. JMO

 

[Sethodine]

I understand that your Battery Powered Vehicle meets your needs and you are happy with it.
I'm even happy for you.
This, however, is not a BPV fan site.
Please find a BPV site where you can regale like minded enthusiasts with your stories of how happy you are with your BPV.
Your constant sales pitch for BPVs in every thread is getting offensive.

I'm sorry. I really am. It's just that people keep bringing up the subject, and spreading mis-information or opinion as if it is fact. It's like when people say your breed of dog is violent, when you know it's not. I'm not trying to "sell" them, so much as I'm trying to counter the misunderstandings that are so common among people who haven't lived with them.

I understand your love of the Electric. But 100 minute refills are a problem for traveling away from the city. This is what keeps it a niche market and not a replacement vehicle for most. It's not culture unless time lost to refill is something you think of as cultural rather than simply pragmatic.

I suspect you've spent the bulk of your life near your job and cannot fully grasp traveling distances as a part of your job and commute. If you have done this, then I'm shocked you don't understand. If 98% of your driving is done close to home, you just don't get what it's like out here in the rest of America.

For years I drove a 160-mile round-trip commute to work, (1.5 hours in the morning, 2 hours in the evening due to traffic). I grew up in a rural community where you had to drive 40 minutes to get to anything, and most jobs required commuting out-of-town. I understand what it means to have a long commute. And yes, that kind of commute would be impossible in my Leaf. Next-gen EVs like the Chevy Bolt and Tesla Model 3 would be able to handle it, though.
My point was that the car's equipment (battery and charger) was more important than infrastructure, and that advances in on-board technology are making the infrastructure "problem" almost irrelevant.

Of course 100 minutes to recharge would not be workable for a long commute. Even the 40-minutes that a DC-Fast Charger takes would be problematic--but workable--for a long-distance commute. This is why we have our Elio! As much as I like EVs, I'm not blind to the sense that a gas-powered Elio makes, and it's the main reason I think an Electric Elio is just silly. And in a world where EVs begin replacing ICE cars, the Elio will still sell like hot cakes because it is very good at something that EVs suck at.

I'd even argue that EVs growing in popularity will add to the "and car" value of the Elio.

Altho I respect your passion and your knowledge on the subject, to say, "get a bigger charger" doesn't address the fact that the nations power grid has been operating at (or near) capacity for years.
That is the part of the infrastructure that isn't ready. JMO

You are 100% correct. If EVs are to be "the future", then we definitely need to invest in advances in our national electrical infrastructure. My point was that too many people who don't drive EVs worry about the public charging infrastructure, when that is actually such a tiny part of EV ownership.

 

[Elio Amazed]

Altho I respect your passion and your knowledge on the subject, to say, "get a bigger charger" doesn't address the fact that the nations power grid has been operating at (or near) capacity for years.
That is the part of the infrastructure that isn't ready. JMO

Our part of the grid just went down for about two hours.
Don't know why for sure, but it does happen to be one of the first 88-degree/high humidity days we've had this season.

Just sayin'...

I suspect you've spent the bulk of your life near your job and cannot fully grasp traveling distances as a part of your job and commute. If you have done this, then I'm shocked you don't understand. If 98% of your driving is done close to home, you just don't get what it's like out here in the rest of America.

Marshall, I'm going to be respectfully honest with you on this.
You might consider not publicly making assumptions about the life experience and comprehension...
Or lack thereof (ie: "you just don't get what it's like" and "cannot fully grasp")...
Of other members that you don't really know all that well.
While it's a possibility that what you suggest may well be true, IMO, a better way to find out...
Would be to ask the individual(s) in a respectful manner.

I enjoy those individuals contributing to our discussions, whether they be about "The Elio", "The Elgin", Flying Airplanes, Working on Barges, Motorcycle Racing and Trick Riding, Former Experience as Department Heads in Major Corporations, or EVs. I certainly would not like to see them discouraged from doing so and subsequently loose those contributions on this forum.

And Seth, thank you for being your gratious self as usual.

 

[Elio Amazed]

Shorthand: You can't stack subsidies.

A very good way to put it.

 

[outsydthebox]

I'm sorry. I really am. It's just that people keep bringing up the subject, and spreading mis-information or opinion as if it is fact. It's like when people say your breed of dog is violent, when you know it's not. I'm not trying to "sell" them, so much as I'm trying to counter the misunderstandings that are so common among people who haven't lived with them.

Seth, keep doing what you do.

 

[outsydthebox]

Marshall, I'm going to be respectfully honest with you on this.
You might consider not publicly making assumptions about the life experience and comprehension...
Or lack thereof (ie: "you just don't get what it's like" and "cannot fully grasp")...
Of other members that you don't really know all that well.
While it's a possibility that what you suggest may well be true, IMO, a better way to find out...
Would be to ask the individual(s) in a respectful manner.

I think it's safe to say, we have all said things that could use a little "correction."
I will admit that some of the ''corrections" I have made have probably been more like a slap in the face...I need to work on that.
I too, appreciate the great variety of life experience and knowledge on this forum...Marshall included.