Comments From A Mechanical Engineer

[NSTG8R]

actually, the breaking should have the ability to sense the weight distribution of the vehicle and balance the braking forces according to the total weight distribution, like the later model goldwings do.

Yep. But I'm not as sure it has to do with weight distribution as rotor speed. Sensors at the rotors prevent them from locking (ABS) during braking, essentially 'pumping' the brakes real fast to make sure the tires don't skid. Then again, I know nothing about how Honda motorcycle's system works.

 

[wheaters]

When driving my 1959 Messerschmitt it will often lift the inside front wheel in a tight turn and boy do you know it when it happens. I am always careful because of it and learned allot over the 30 years of driving it. About 2 months ago I had someone turn in front of me which I avoided hitting by doing a quick maneuver around it but it caused the Messerschmitt to flip almost completely over. I was very lucky and only got banged up but I am now in the middle of doing some body work and restoration.

ClubJoe
Sunny Brandon, FL

This wasn't you then?

 

[goldwing06]

Yep. But I'm not as sure it has to do with weight distribution as rotor speed. Sensors at the rotors prevent them from locking (ABS) during braking, essentially 'pumping' the brakes real fast to make sure the tires don't skid. Then again, I know nothing about how Honda motorcycle's system works.

well, maybe a better example would the the anti lock brake in it's younger days. the rear axle had a height sensor that connect to the break line to allow only as much hydraulic pressure as needed for the perceived load of the vehicle, because p/u's used to be notorious for locking the rear breaks, especially on wet roads. those vehicles came with a warning, not to install rear suspension assist because it would fool the rear breaking sensor when u were loaded and it would not provide antiquate braking pressure to the rear cylinders.

 

[NSTG8R]

well, maybe a better example would the the anti lock brake in it's younger days. the rear axle had a height sensor that connect to the break line to allow only as much hydraulic pressure as needed for the perceived load of the vehicle, because p/u's used to be notorious for locking the rear breaks, especially on wet roads. those vehicles came with a warning, not to install rear suspension assist because it would fool the rear breaking sensor when u were loaded and it would not provide antiquate braking pressure to the rear cylinders.

Wasn't aware of this. Thanks for the enlightenment!

 

[Smitty901]

Antilock brakes have become pretty much standard on many motorcycles now. While not on my must have list ,they do work very well I have had the on my last two touring bikes. No reason they will not work just fine on the ELIO.
ABS on my bike does not care how much or little it is loaded, it doesn't madder if I raise or lower the bike. They work off sensors in the bearing and that is how it stops you from locking up. Should any part in the system fail they just revert to normal brakes.

 

[goldwing06]

Yep. But I'm not as sure it has to do with weight distribution as rotor speed. Sensors at the rotors prevent them from locking (ABS) during braking, essentially 'pumping' the brakes real fast to make sure the tires don't skid. Then again, I know nothing about how Honda motorcycle's system works.

kinda an unfair comparison really. the elio will only have the one break pedal so height sense valving will need to be used to balance the braking forces between front and rear wheels. the goldwing uses multiple pistons within the pucks, that are attached to the front and rear breaks, on three rotors. if i had a diagram to post it would explain a lot but that is not the system i would want installed on the elio, only the concept of differential braking, probably by a rear swing arm sensor, so that a rear seat pax would cause more rear wheel braking force than the driver alone.

 

[NSTG8R]

kinda an unfair comparison really. the elio will only have the one break pedal so height sense valving will need to be used to balance the braking forces between front and rear wheels. the goldwing uses multiple pistons within the pucks, that are attached to the front and rear breaks, on three rotors. if i had a diagram to post it would explain a lot but that is not the system i would want installed on the elio, only the concept of differential braking, probably by a rear swing arm sensor, so that a rear seat pax would cause more rear wheel braking force than the driver alone.

Agreed...unfair comparison for sure. I know car's systems well enough, but the only thing I know about motorcycles is what I learned working on my dirt bikes...completely mechanical. Street bikes, particularly newer ones are a mystery to me.

 

[Bert]

I hope to add a bit of clarification to the wheel spin and suspension questions. I wrenched for many years, raced both cars and bikes, and love the thrills they bring. (Even at my old age)
Differentials, both rear wheel drive and transaxles, have planetary gears inside, allowing each axle exiting them to spin at different rates as needed. When you turn a corner the inside wheel is spinning at the rate the ring and pinion assembly is, the outer wheel rolls faster than that due to "free wheeling planetary gears". For those who already have front wheel drive, accelerate harder out of the corner and notice how your steering wheel tries to turn you straight! That's the inside wheel catching up with the outside one.
A limited slip or positrack differential uses springs and friction plates to put pressure on the planetary gears. This increases dramatically the force needed to make one wheel spin, while the other "floats" along. Useful for drag strips and most circle tracks, but usually not needed for everyday driving. A locked rear end is just that, both wheels turn at the same rate no matter what. Locked rear ends don't allow for smooth cornering, but force a person to burn some rubber to bring the car around. If you lock the rear end, you've pretty much ruined the handling of that particular vehicle for anything except straight lines.
I've commented before on how much I like the front suspension on the P4, but didn't elaborate much. What it has is called a double wishbone suspension. Even without a sway bar it will handle very well indeed! With a sway bar there isn't many cars on the road that will do better. Look at Indy cars, euro racing cars and road racing cars. Odds are you will see the double wishbone suspension!
The double wishbone causes the the downforce of the vehicles weight to be applied at the top part of the tire assembly. This allows the tires to remain a lot more upright (eliminating the tires folding under in the corners) while cornering! The benefits are, weight is distributed to three firm points as well as the other side of the vehicle, the upright tires allows all the tread to remain on the ground, the weight is added proportionatly instead of instantly, rebound rates are very mild AND you end up with a very stable ride.
Sorry so wordy, and I hope I didn't add confusion for anyone. I work graveyards and have stayed up to watch the ballgame today, so I plead ignorance for any mis spelled words on this particular day...
Edited for th brake questions. I expect the Elio will have either a 70-30 or 80-20 perportioning system, with most of the braking being the front wheels of course..

 

[goldwing06]

that's what I was thinking and the reason I asked the question .... I'm looking forward to hearing more about how they plan to distribute power to the front tires

Jim

this may be of interest. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front-engine,_front-wheel-drive_layout

 

[goldwing06]

Antilock brakes have become pretty much standard on many motorcycles now. While not on my must have list ,they do work very well I have had the on my last two touring bikes. No reason they will not work just fine on the ELIO.
ABS on my bike does not care how much or little it is loaded, it doesn't madder if I raise or lower the bike. They work off sensors in the bearing and that is how it stops you from locking up. Should any part in the system fail they just revert to normal brakes.

smitty, the abs is a whole different ball game, compared to mechanical valving brake control. i was leaning in the direction of cheap, technology wise, to give the elio a margin of safety over straight brakes. if the abs could be incorporated into the vehicle for the same $6800 bucks, great! would much rather have it.