E85, Flex Fuel Engine?

[Brian1362]

The Elio will be compatible with up to E15. I asked Elio this question in an e-mail in April.

Most of the gasoline now sold contains some ethanol, but the exact amount varies by region. In general, the ethanol content does not exceed 10% by volume. Gasoline with 10% ethanol content is referred to as E10 and with 15% ethanol as E15. E85 means there is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. Most of the gasoline with more than 10% ethanol is sold in the Midwest.
All gasoline vehicles can use E10. Currently only light-duty vehicles with a model year 2001 or greater can use E15. Only "flex-fuel" vehicles can use gasoline with an ethanol content greater than E15.
The energy content of ethanol is about 33% less than "pure" gasoline, although this varies depending on the amount of denaturant that is added to the ethanol. Thus, vehicle fuel economy may decrease by up to 3.3% when using E10.

I hope this helps.

I have ran, on an occasion or two, E85 in my flex fuel truck. It was almost 50 cents per gallon cheaper than regular gas. Guess what, you definitely get what you pay for. At the time, my truck averaged 12.4 in town. When I put E85 in it, it averaged 9.5. Would I do it again? NO.

 

[Jeff Miller]

Most of the gasoline now sold contains some ethanol, but the exact amount varies by region. In general, the ethanol content does not exceed 10% by volume. Gasoline with 10% ethanol content is referred to as E10 and with 15% ethanol as E15. E85 means there is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. Most of the gasoline with more than 10% ethanol is sold in the Midwest.
All gasoline vehicles can use E10. Currently only light-duty vehicles with a model year 2001 or greater can use E15. Only "flex-fuel" vehicles can use gasoline with an ethanol content greater than E15.
The energy content of ethanol is about 33% less than "pure" gasoline, although this varies depending on the amount of denaturant that is added to the ethanol. Thus, vehicle fuel economy may decrease by up to 3.3% when using E10.

Sorry, can't refuse a good political rant.

• Ethanol fuels produce more acidic tail pipe emissions
• Making Ethanol consumes huge quantities of resources (land, food, water, chemicals, and yes even fuel) that likely make the net savings in the terms of resources and fuel a negative.
• Ethanol is only cheaper because of the HUGE subsidies

About the only good thing about Ethanol is that in the upper mid-west the farmers can sell more grain and we don't have to put more alcohol in our tanks to keep fuel lines from freezing in the winter.

And yes, I live in a state that continues to promote more Ethanol because we produce it here. It really ticks me off to see my taxes go to support an industry that wouldn't exist without govt mandates.

 

[ecdriver711]

Sorry, can't refuse a good political rant.

• Ethanol fuels produce more acidic tail pipe emissions
• Making Ethanol consumes huge quantities of resources (land, food, water, chemicals, and yes even fuel) that likely make the net savings in the terms of resources and fuel a negative.
• Ethanol is only cheaper because of the HUGE subsidies

About the only good thing about Ethanol is that in the upper mid-west the farmers can sell more grain and we don't have to put more alcohol in our tanks to keep fuel lines from freezing in the winter.

And yes, I live in a state that continues to promote more Ethanol because we produce it here. It really ticks me off to see my taxes go to support an industry that wouldn't exist without govt mandates.

Ahhhh, didos

 

[Lil4X]

If you think we're saving the world by using ethanol, please note that the price of a tortilla has skyrocketed on the streets of Mexico City, rising 69% between 2005 - 2011. That means that US ethanol expansion cost Mexico between $1.5-$3.2 billion in higher corn prices- or on average between $250-$500 million per year. That money, plowed (sorry) into Mexico's corn productivity could raise their national corn output 700,000 tons per year - but that's only about 10% of their corn "deficit".

The problem is that corn, like oil and motor gasoline is a "fungible commodity", that is because it is freely exchanged for gold, or other commodities, it's price, while flexible, causes it to go to the highest bidder on the world market. We are using corn not only to feed livestock, but now we are putting it in our tank, subsidized by the federal government. That means that when we sit down to dinner, we have to set a place for our livestock and now our automobiles, because they are competing with us for the food on our tables. In relatively wealthy nations, we don't feel the pinch so much as in the second or third world where food is survival rather than choice.

What can we do? Well, we can start by shutting off the subsidies that have artificially supported corn as a biofuel for the past ten-plus years. There is plenty of biomass out there from which we can produce fuel or fuel additives - Brazil has been doing it for the past 37 years, at this point it is fully sustainable. Brazil's biofuel industry is based on an extremely efficient means of producing sugar cane and turning it into ethanol - but it does require vast acreage to be planted in sugar cane. Sugar cane is six times more efficient at producing biofuel than corn, but at this point at least, the corn lobby is winning out over the sugar lobby at the USDA and DOE. Today, Brazil is a net exporter of ethanol, sending as much as 160 million barrels (over 7 billion gallons) of sugar cane-based ethanol to the US annually.

There are plenty of other biomass resources here at home that could be even more efficient than sugar cane, such as switchgrass, the current rockstar of the cellulose biofuel world. An acre planted in fast-growing switchgrass can produce as much as 1,150 gallons of ethanol annually, according to the Oak Ridge National Laboratory, and it can be grown on marginal land that is not suitable for foodgrains. It is a perennial, meaning that it only has to be planted once, requires minimal water, fertilizer, or pesticides, and its cellulose biomass is much more easily processed into ethanol than corn or soybeans.

There are solutions out there, but just as with other alternative forms of energy, none will be competitive with crude oil for at least another generation. So far, in terms of energy density, today's conventional gasoline and diesel refined from crude pack the biggest bang for the buck. We just need to use smaller or fewer "bangs" to save bucks. Enter Elio.

 

[Jim H]

Sorry, can't refuse a good political rant.

• Ethanol fuels produce more acidic tail pipe emissions
• Making Ethanol consumes huge quantities of resources (land, food, water, chemicals, and yes even fuel) that likely make the net savings in the terms of resources and fuel a negative.
• Ethanol is only cheaper because of the HUGE subsidies

About the only good thing about Ethanol is that in the upper mid-west the farmers can sell more grain and we don't have to put more alcohol in our tanks to keep fuel lines from freezing in the winter.

And yes, I live in a state that continues to promote more Ethanol because we produce it here. It really ticks me off to see my taxes go to support an industry that wouldn't exist without govt mandates.

Well said!!!!!!

 

[dgruis]

As an Iowan and an Agriculture instructor, I still like the potential of a Flex-fuel option. The following video is significant support that ethanol does not ruin engines like many say. If the Elio runs 84 mpg on the highway, I don't mind sacrificing mpg by 2% to 7%. 79 mpg with e85 would still kick butt.

 

[olddog1946]

I honestly don't know enough about e whatever, but do know that I don't like the way my bike ran when having to use the higher concentrates while traveling to the midwest last summer and while it may not "harm" a modern engine I can for sure say it does affect rubber seals, diaphragms etc...if I can find non ethanol fuel, I'll use it, otherwise the lowest content available will be used.

 

[Farm Boy]

I am sorry to disagree with most of your rants but here are the facts---as I see them. True there were subsidies for ethanol and bio-diesel, but they are currently in limbo in congress. Ethanol as of now can stand on its own and doesn’t need direct government help. The only help it gets is from the “Renewable fuel standard’s” that require that a portion of the fuel used be from renewable souses, that’s the only current help ethanol is getting or needs. If that wasn’t there the oil company’s wouldn’t put it in, why would you cut your profits by using a competitor’s product in with your own. Bio-diesel isn’t in that good of shape and has to have government help in the form of tax breaks to make it even close to affordable at the pump. Corn is a good choice for ethanol for many reasons. First, we produce lots of if, it’s an abundant commodity. It is easily turned into ethanol, the proses is far more efficient now than it was even 5 years ago. Second, that’s not the end, you have DDGs [distillers dried grain] left after the ethanol process that is used for animal feed, so it’s a gain not a loss in the process. Most of the corn we grow goes for animal feed not human consumption, so it not taking food out of any ones mouth. Ethanol has been in use for more than 30 year to one degree or another and it is just here lately that crop prices have gotten high and people have started complaining about that we were putting our food in our fuel tanks. Crop prices would have gotten high even if we weren’t using ethanol because of a range of geo-political factors that are out of our direct control. The Mexican tortilla price spike has much more to do with a bad economy south of the border that the fact we use ethanol. The biomass ethanol sounds good and could be a help but it is not yet a commercially viable option, availability of raw material being the main one. The government would have to subsidize the startup, you have the basic chicken and egg problem, no raw materials because of no demand, no one is building a processing plant because there are on raw materials. And you have the leftovers, like I said before, with corn you have the DDGs that farmers are happy and willing to use in livestock feed.
One poster complained about a mileage drop and yes it will drop some. The big thing you have to remember to do is run several tanks to get your car “used to running E85”. It sounds funny but it true, your cars computer has to learn how to best run on E85 and that takes time, one or two tanks won’t do. On new vehicles it’s just a matter of software and testing to make them work, the hardware doesn’t need modification.
If you couldn’t tell I grew up on and still work on the farm that’s been in my family since the 1850s and I get frustrated when I see what I consider half-truths and misinformation being floated out there. I’m not saying that E85 is the answer, it’s just part of an ever evolving solution to some of our world’s problems, just like my favorite car, the ELIO, is.

 

[Snick]

http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentm...pression_Ratio_of_Ethanol_Gasoline_Blends.pdf

 

[KN16]

First, we produce lots of if, it’s an abundant commodity.

Wrong. The Obsession of turning corn into alcohol has caused shortages and food riots in other parts of the world that used to receive our surplus corn.

Ethanol as of now can stand on its own and doesn’t need direct government help.

Wrong again. You can't produce alky at a price that will compete with gasoline. More so since the restrictions holding gasoline prices artificially high won't last forever.

One poster complained about a mileage drop and yes it will drop some. The big thing you have to remember to do is run several tanks to get your car “used to running E85”. It sounds funny but it true, your cars computer has to learn how to best run on E85 and that takes time, one or two tanks won’t do. On new vehicles it’s just a matter of software and testing to make them work,.

Sorry wrong again. Alky doesn't have the energy potential of gasoline. Period. No amount of tuning or computer wizardry will add BTU's to a fuel when they're not there to start with.

Corn a very efficient source of food and a very inefficient source of fuel.