E85, Flex Fuel Engine?

[Farm Boy]

Will, or should, the production engine be set up as a flex fuel engine?

 

[AltoidBox]

I don't think they should. E85 has significantly less energy per unit (you'll get way worse MPG while using it) without an equivalent or better savings at the pump.

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[Farm Boy]

You are right, there are less BTUs per gallon in ethanol compared to gasoline. But around here E85 is usually about 35-50 cents a gallon less at the pump. But if most energy per gallon is the goal, then maybe diesel should be considered. There are more BTUs per gallon in diesel compared to ether gas or ethanol. I like the idea of a small turbo diesel power plant, the MPGs might push the 100 mark. The only trouble is that diesel right now is 30-50 cents a gallon higher per gallon than regular gas and diesel engines are usually more expensive to build.

 

[AltoidBox]

Doing a little research, it looks like E85 has about 72% of the energy of regular gas. And fueleconomy.gov says you'll get 25-30% lower MPG when using it. So, it seems that E85 prices would have to be about 72% the price of regular gas just to break even. At a conservative $3/gal you'd need a discount of at least $0.84/gal to see any savings.

I don't know what kind of things they'd have to do to the engine to support it, but I imagine it would have some sort of additional cost.

I wouldn't mind seeing a diesel option at some point (or even E85 support if it becomes economical), but I would imagine anything like that might be a few model years out.

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[jtmarten]

And, E85 consumes far more energy & resources than it provides in any type of gains. It's like fool's gold: looks pretty up front, but get into real analysis and it begins to tarnish quickly.
A small turbo diesel would be a great way to go. The VW TDi in Europe nets ~75mpg, an Elio would prob push well over 100mpg.

 

[Farm Boy]

E85 production is far more efficient then it was 10 or even 5 years ago. The energy in energy out figures are very good, there is hardly any waste every thing is utilized. The hardest and most expensive part is getting the last 10% of the water out of the ethanol to make it pure. If you could run on say an 80% pure ethanol, no gas. you could make that your self and cut out the middle man. When I was in collage, many moons ago, we tuned an engine to run on 140 prof vodka. It ran good and smelled better then the gas one to, and we made a mean cocktail with the leftovers. If we are talking alternative fuels, what about compressed natural gas or LP? Yes, I know, those are more money to get ready and we should just concentrate on getting the first production run out and think about alternative power plants for later runs!

 

[NRB]

NO, NO, NO---ethanol is garbage in a combustion engine. Here in the South , it has ruined more both small and large engines and thinking folks want no part of it!!!

 

[Farm Boy]

Bad for chain saws, boat motors not good on any engine with a carburetor and not fuel injection because you have to "re-tune" to run on the ethanol and then change back when you go back to straight gas. Also ethanol is a solvent, if you run it on an old dirty engine. especially a 2 stroke, it will start to clean out all the old crud and cause you trouble not to mention that you need to run a different 2 stroke oil if you are using ethanol. Any rubber hoses will start to go bad if there not made to work with ethanol. If you look at any of the new vehicles they all have steel & braided steel lines on them, and as long as you start out with every thing clean you are OK. I have been through all this , i have been a mechanic for 35 years and have worked an everything from chainsaws lawn mowers ATVs snowmobiles jet skis to farm and construction equipment. There was a very steep learning curve on all of them to know what to expect and know how to use ethanol mixes properly. Just a post script, Henry Ford built the first flex fuel car, The model T. It could run on alcohol just as well as gas.

 

[dgruis]

E85? I am very in favor of an E85/flex fuel option. In Des Moines, IA E85 today is $2.49 and regular is $3.19 per gallon. Even with a decrease in mpg the cost difference/mile E85 vs. Regular is trivial. In Iowa, I have used a 13% ethanol blend gas for roughly 20 years. The claims about engine damage by ethanol are promoted heavily by big oil. Should we believe big oil who do not want us to use ethanol? I have friends with E85/flex-fuel vehicles and they love them, several of them are over 150,000 miles each. It is a fact that some components on older engines are destroyed by ethanol, newer engines replace the components with stainless steel or ethanol-safe materials.

 

[dgruis]

Diesel? As a smart car owner I have always wanted a diesel smart they get between 60-70 mpg. I looked into buying a diesel smart in Canada and titling it in the U.S., but it is not possible (or almost impossible). I would love a diesel Elio, but I assume the issue my be similar to Mercedes not importing diesel smarts to the U.S, the demand for diesels is weak in comparison to gas and the additional regulation requirements produce a U.S.-legal diesel is NOT cost effective. We can thank GM for destroying the diesel car market in the early 80's. Many complain about Europeans, but they have enjoyed higher mpg diesels for many years.