Traction Control System

[NSTG8R]

I thought they were FWD. I'm sure I've seen driveshafts to the front wheels.

If not, my apologies.

But if it is rear wheel drive, it is like the JZR, the Grinall and the Morgan. Rear wheel drive on a trike can allow the driver to get himself into big trouble if he pushes too hard, as I've mentioned before, to the point of vehicle rollover. Front wheel drive is naturally self limiting because once a front wheel becomes unloaded, drive traction is naturally reduced, which is what ASC was designed to do, artificially assisting the driver to maintain control.

Had to go look it up just to make sure I wasn't leading you astray on my statement about the Can Am Spyder...yep, rwd like the Morgan (love those, like a wingless Sopwith Camel!). But 100% agree with everything else you said.

 

[wheaters]

Yes, me too, you are correct, RWD it is.

 

[Snick]

That's a strange way to try to make your point. The car manufacturers tell us that ESC / ASC/ DSC is fitted to assist with cornering stability, rather than improve traction in snow. They also admit that in extremely slippery conditions, traction control may be a liability. That's probably why they provide a switch to disable it.


Traction control (an artificial LSD) can create problems in some conditions, which is why you can disable it). ESC is more than that. I will explain below.

What you haven't provided is information on the mechanical design of the transmission of those two cars in your example. Have you considered that the Mazda might have a limited slip differential, which makes a huge difference in traction?

Nope, didn't have an LSD. My brother's not a performance guy and would not retrofit $2500 of fancy differential onto a family sedan (it was the basic model). I don't even think he knows anything about cars beyond oil/tires/gas.

Last week I drove my son's BMW 120D on the motorway. Like they all seem to have (there are three in my immediate family, all built after 2003), it has traction control and DSC (and a limited slip differential, but that's not directly relevant here). I was taking it back to him after it had a clutch and flywheel change. However, it developed a DCT system fault on the way. The warning light began flashing, which was definitely not because of a loss of traction. After a few seconds, the car suffered a complete loss of power, quite dangerous on a very busy motorway, especially as I was in the outer lane. I switched off the DTC and all power was restored. This is exactly what happens if the car is driven on ice. The fault was with a corroded ABS ring on the driveshaft. It had expanded and begun to contact the sensor, causing a false signal.

Bummer.

The CANAM Spyder has almost double the torque of an Elio. It also has a shorter wheel base, giving it a lower polar moment of inertia, and because the riders sit on top, rather than low down as per the Elio, the (rapid!) acceleration will result in a larger amount of apparent weight shift, unloading the front wheels to a greater degree. I can well understand why the designers fitted "the full works" to it. Without traction and stability control, it would scrabble for grip and possibly suffer quite badly from torque steer, especially at low speeds when pulling away.

BTW, all seasons tyres aren't designed for snow. They are a design compromise. Fit winter tyres and you will see a very noticeable difference.

Yes. You are absolutely right. Snow tires will outperform all other tires, EXCEPT if they are mounted to a non-ESC equippped car, and an identical car with good quality A/S tires AND ESC comes alongside. Then they are matched perfectly. An ESC car with snow tires will make you giggle because it can get places you're sure would stick a tank.

But at the time, the blizzard hit so hard and so severely, there was a queue of cars stuck trying to get into the tire shops. Most of these that couldn't get dragged in and fitted stayed there for the next 4 days. In an area with intermittent and wildly unpredictable blizzards of such low frequency, $850 worth of winter tires are a hard investment to justify. As soon as it warms up above freezing, your extremely expensive winter tires are practically melting their uber soft rubber onto the road. High quality all-seasons are a 'good enough, most of the time' compromise. If I'd lived in a "true cold north" region with predictable winters, then winter tires would have been a no brainer. I didn't and they weren't.

There is a confusion about electronic "traction aids" I think because each manufacturer has created their own naming schemes and even some have opted for 2 of the several layers possible, which has created some confusion.

For background here is the wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control and another http://www.safetyresearch.net/blog/...nic-stability-controls-and-their-applications

In the beginning there was ABS. ABS helps you steer whilst braking aggressively. BUT, drivers without training felt the pulsing and backed off the pedals. Proper and best use of ABS equipped car is to take it to a deserted road when you first buy it and practice a few panic stops so you know what to expect. Few ever did or do. I forced my wife to practice a high speed panic stop to full stop and to steer through the pulsing/weird ABS.

For this reason mainly, ABS alone does not save very many lives. I mark it up to lack of training, because WITH training and ABS, you can avoid more accidents than without.

Then, there is Traction Control. TC is just an electronic differential lock to stabilize a car's side-to-side movements in hard acceleration. A true LSD is better and smoother. TC is what irritates the hell out of most seasoned drivers. TC is probably responsible for most of the driving public's perception that ESC is an "electronic nanny" because its first implementation depended on yaw sensors, slip sensing, and mostly ignored steering input, or didn't even have steering angle inputs, so it can come on very heavy handed when accelerating out of a slow corner, precisely when you either want to plow, drift, or swing the back end out, depending on your intent. TC only works on cars that already have ABS, so if you have TC you also have ABS.

Finally, we end up at Electronic Stability Control. ESC has: yaw sensing, steering angle sensing, throttle position sensing, slip sensing, roll sensing, engine power sensing, gear position and clutch position sensing, brake on/off, and some even have brake pedal position sensing.

ESC is usually programmed with extremely sophisticated fuzzy logic that can switch maps depending on YOUR driving style, by listening to your clutch position, engine power request (TPS), actual power on road, gear number, etcetera...for instance, ESC will disable the Traction Control feature by 90% when it senses that you are in a 'power slide'. As you return to more normal/sedate driving and it senses more typical inputs, it will subtly and progressively re-engage TC so that you never notice it. ESC senses steering angle on a progressive rate corner entry and notices you are slightly letting off the throttle. In preparation, it precharges hydraulics to your front, inside tire's brakes for just the slightest, feathery pulsing touch on that tire as soon as grip is lost anywhere in order to keep the front end pointing where your steering angle intended. Now, in fine driving weather, you probably don't want this, as you may enjoy the challenge of a decreasing radius turn or entry to a chicane. But in inclement weather with patchy ice or ice over gravel or generally unpredictable traction conditions, ESC is nothing short of stunning, always keeping your car's attitude in a manner commensurate with your tires actual grip limits.

Now, various manufacturers implement the different layers of this onion differently. All rely on proprietary final coding, and the standardization is loose to allow some companies to really show their stuff. But that also gives a somewhat disjointed driving experience, especially for classically trained drivers, as you step from one car to another. Also, I forgot to mention, engine power retarding....ugh, this feature also irritates even average drivers. It can be very heavy handed because, primarily, most ESC programmers seem to have put the least time into programming it. I think it's because they have not been trained as drivers. Most of the implementations are waaaaaaaay too heavy handed all/nothing power application, and don't even seem to know the car's own power curve. For instance, this feature is especially irritating in turbo equipped cars because of the lag.

In closing, ESC is brilliant in inclement weather, even for seasoned, classically trained drivers. If you work WITH your ESC to understand it fine points and it's rough points, you will be a better and faster driver and have just as much fun. If you fight it, you will not. A few years back, Audi ran the R10 with next-gen ESC fitted around a racetrack and cut over 1 second off the lap times, versus same car and same driver with ESC disabled. Even the very best race car drivers can't argue against ESC's superiority in holding the tires at the limits.

Next generation ESC's will have improved power retarding (more subtle) and even sense road ice/snow!

 

[wheaters]

Snick,

The OP asked about traction control in a vehicle with 55 hp, not about a high performance sports car on a racetrack.

I'm no longer feeding the troll.

 

[Snick]

Fine. But when most people mention traction control, they don't even know the true meaning. They're usually intending Stability Control (ESC). The original posting was to inquire about what kind of system the Elio might have. Goofyone answered it succinctly. You went on ranting snide, wrong, emotional, and mocking reasons about why an Elio didn't need any 'electronic nannys'.

I've clearly outlined why ESC is MORE important for an Elio, and schooled you like a stubborn 4th grader bully child.

If facts, data, hardcore proof, and thoughtful analysis make me a troll, then I wear it with pride.

Strongly held, emotionally derived opinions bow to physics and facts, not the other way 'round.

 

[JEBar]

We know direct from Elio Motors that Anti-lock Brakes (ABS), Traction Control (TCS) and Electronic Stability Control (ESC) will all be standard and made by Mando who are working on systems designed specifically for a three wheeled vehicle. This was covered in a Tech Talk from August 13, 2014.

when in the opening post, I asked for info about the Traction Control System Elio Motors is listing as a standard feature, other than something that helps control traction o_O I had no clue what they were talking about .... even though for the most part they have been over my head, I've enjoyed reading the various explanations .... the response shown above, has been the most helpful so far .... the more I read about front wheel drive trikes, the clearer it has become that they have some definite issues .... the quote from the above link, "Traction control utilizes both engine and precision brake control to maximize acceleration and stability on all surface conditions." points out that it is a pretty complex process

Jim