Engine Swap?

[NSTG8R]

Hmmm...Maybe this would've been the correct thread for my thoughts about "possibly" helping the performance of the little 3-banger. Copy/Paste from the "hybrid" thread.

Okay. Not suggesting that EM should tack from their original design...Stay on task, and get that baby on the road ASAP Please! That said, just reading all the negative remarks about the 0 - 60 time, and 'general' lack of HP for some folks, got me thinking. I'm not a big fan of 'dead weight' and 'free-loaders' (oops, gave away my political leanings), so I say, "Why does this rear wheel get a free ride while the front ones do all the work?". Here's my mildly uninformed suggestion. How about, maybe an aftermarket kit (as stated above, no delays to the original vehicle design PLEASE!), that converts the rear wheel to electric (via a hub motor and smallish battery pack fwd of the rear wheel). It's not intended to actually drive the vehicle, rather give the little 3-banger a boost under load (i.e. - accelerating from a stop, getting on the highway, lessening the load on the engine on hills, etc...). I haven't really dug into the subject too deep, but I'm pretty sure it could also be used for regenerative braking, and recharging it's little battery pack while it helps slow the Elio down. In my mind (it's a scary place to be sure), it would have to boost the "projected" 84 mpg. Could be wrong, and wouldn't be offended by anyone that 'knows' about this stuff telling me so. So am I crazy? Or crazy like a fox?

 

[Joshua Caldwell]

I imagine that forged rods and pistons should allow it to make up to 100hp with a turbo and a tune. A weak engine has never stopped people from throwing F/I or NOS for a bit of extra performance. At least with the elio the engine will be the weak point and, probably, not the differential like my last car.

Yup, but my best friend's daughter threw a rod straight through the block just last week. She installed a turbo only two weeks prior to that.

 

[Elio Amazed]

Hmmm...Maybe this would've been the correct thread for my thoughts about "possibly" helping the performance of the little 3-banger. Copy/Paste from the "hybrid" thread.

Okay. Not suggesting that EM should tack from their original design...Stay on task, and get that baby on the road ASAP Please! That said, just reading all the negative remarks about the 0 - 60 time, and 'general' lack of HP for some folks, got me thinking. I'm not a big fan of 'dead weight' and 'free-loaders' (oops, gave away my political leanings), so I say, "Why does this rear wheel get a free ride while the front ones do all the work?". Here's my mildly uninformed suggestion. How about, maybe an aftermarket kit (as stated above, no delays to the original vehicle design PLEASE!), that converts the rear wheel to electric (via a hub motor and smallish battery pack fwd of the rear wheel). It's not intended to actually drive the vehicle, rather give the little 3-banger a boost under load (i.e. - accelerating from a stop, getting on the highway, lessening the load on the engine on hills, etc...). I haven't really dug into the subject too deep, but I'm pretty sure it could also be used for regenerative braking, and recharging it's little battery pack while it helps slow the Elio down. In my mind (it's a scary place to be sure), it would have to boost the "projected" 84 mpg. Could be wrong, and wouldn't be offended by anyone that 'knows' about this stuff telling me so. So am I crazy? Or crazy like a fox?

I don't know how well this story will relate, but because of it, I'll pass on that option.
I've got a sweet little '95 Yamaha 250 virago that gets 75mpg city.
I paid $1500 for it.
I just passed on a '05 with 3480 miles for $800 that basically only needed a shine and a good rap on the carb bowl to un-stick the float valve.
I'm kicking myself for not buying and flipping it. My point is that you can occasionally find them for that price.

Two days ago I saw a couple of very nice Ventrex VX-1's on ebay for $1699 each.
The going '14 price of a Ventrex (upgraded battery and extended range) is $11,999.
I thought, Geez, it would be great to get the 25-mile range for 50 cents a charge.
The full size 500+lb. "scooter style" VX-1 MC looks deadly cool.
I would be driving to work for a quarter per 11-mile round trip instead of 50 cents on the Virago.

Then I did the math.
Figuring 20 trips to work a month per $.25 = $5. That would be a month. Equivalent to 175mpg.
20 trips with my Virago (with all the cruiser bling I've added, also looks fairly deadly cool) would run me $10.
The Ventrex EV would save me $60 per year figuring "fuel" alone.

The important part of all this is that I haven't seen an EV yet that has a battery pack with a useful life of more than 10 years.
I'd save $600 in "fuel" over ten years, BUT...
I'd have to replace the battery pack on the Ventrex in ten years.
@ 10 years it would probably be lucky to be producing 50-60% of it's "when new" range.
Cost for a new battery replacement for the MX-1 = $3000.
$3000 minus $600 = $2400.
I would save $600 in "fuel", but it would cost me $3000 to give the bike a new life.
Now in ten years with 25,000 miles on it, the Virago, should still be kicking butt.
The Ventrex? It would be sitting there while I decided whether I wanted to shell out $3000, or sell it for next to nothing.
So let's say I sold it with a useless battery for $400.
It basically cost me $1299 + $600 to go the same distance that cost me $1200 with the Virago.
And insteading of not having any bike after I sold the Ventrex, I'd still have a great bike if I stay with the Virago
And $699 more in my pocket.

That's the thing that gets me about these EVs.
The cheapest ones are still relatively expensive.
It's all joy joy @ $.15 per KWH for ten years, then ka-boom! Mad money for a new battery pack.
That's not even talking about the extra weight, the environmental concerns and the precious metals involved.
Talk about "hidden" cost.

Nope, no thanks, they can definitely keep that option, aftermarket or not.

 

[NSTG8R]

I don't know how well this story will relate, but because of it, I'll pass on that option.
I've got a sweet little '95 Yamaha 250 virago that gets 75mpg city.
I paid $1500 for it.
I just passed on a '05 with 3480 miles for $800 that basically only needed a shine and a good rap on the carb bowl to un-stick the float valve.
I'm kicking myself for not buying and flipping it. My point is that you can occasionally find them for that price.

Two days ago I saw a couple of very nice Ventrex VX-1's on ebay for $1699 each.
The going '14 price of a Ventrex (upgraded battery and extended range) is $11,999.
I thought, Geez, it would be great to get the 25-mile range for 50 cents a charge.
The full size 500+lb. "scooter style" VX-1 MC looks deadly cool.
I would be driving to work for a quarter per 11-mile round trip instead of 50 cents on the Virago.

Then I did the math.
Figuring 20 trips to work a month per $.25 = $5. That would be a month. Equivalent to 175mpg.
20 trips with my Virago (with all the cruiser bling I've added, also looks fairly deadly cool) would run me $10.
The Ventrex EV would save me $60 per year figuring "fuel" alone.

The important part of all this is that I haven't seen an EV yet that has a battery pack with a useful life of more than 10 years.
I'd save $600 in "fuel" over ten years, BUT...
I'd have to replace the battery pack on the Ventrex in ten years.
@ 10 years it would probably be lucky to be producing 50-60% of it's "when new" range.
Cost for a new battery replacement for the MX-1 = $3000.
$3000 minus $600 = $2400.
I would save $600 in "fuel", but it would cost me $3000 to give the bike a new life.
Now in ten years with 25,000 miles on it, the Virago, should still be kicking butt.
The Ventrex? It would be sitting there while I decided whether I wanted to shell out $3000, or sell it for next to nothing.
So let's say I sold it with a useless battery for $400.
It basically cost me $1299 + $600 to go the same distance that cost me $1200 with the Virago.
And insteading of not having any bike after I sold the Ventrex, I'd still have a great bike if I stay with the Virago
And $699 more in my pocket.

That's the thing that gets me about these EVs.
The cheapest ones are still relatively expensive.
It's all joy joy @ $.15 per KWH for ten years, then ka-boom! Mad money for a new battery pack.
That's not even talking about the extra weight, the environmental concerns and the precious metals involved.
Talk about "hidden" cost.

Nope, no thanks, they can definitely keep that option, aftermarket or not.

Actually, that's an excellent point! The 'payback' time for all the parts to make the Elio a hybrid (motor, controller, battery, etc...), and that's assuming that the conversion actually did increase the mpg and not just make it a tail-heavy part-time AWD, could be a significant period of time. Probably won't stop me from trying it though (can't follow a recipe when I'm cooking either...always gotta jack with it.). Going to retire in a few years, and I'll have plenty of time to tinker with my new 3-wheeled guinea pig.

 

[goofyone]

Okay. Not suggesting that EM should tack from their original design...Stay on task, and get that baby on the road ASAP Please! That said, just reading all the negative remarks about the 0 - 60 time, and 'general' lack of HP for some folks, got me thinking. I'm not a big fan of 'dead weight' and 'free-loaders' (oops, gave away my political leanings), so I say, "Why does this rear wheel get a free ride while the front ones do all the work?". Here's my mildly uninformed suggestion. How about, maybe an aftermarket kit (as stated above, no delays to the original vehicle design PLEASE!), that converts the rear wheel to electric (via a hub motor and smallish battery pack fwd of the rear wheel). It's not intended to actually drive the vehicle, rather give the little 3-banger a boost under load (i.e. - accelerating from a stop, getting on the highway, lessening the load on the engine on hills, etc...). I haven't really dug into the subject too deep, but I'm pretty sure it could also be used for regenerative braking, and recharging it's little battery pack while it helps slow the Elio down. In my mind (it's a scary place to be sure), it would have to boost the "projected" 84 mpg. Could be wrong, and wouldn't be offended by anyone that 'knows' about this stuff telling me so. So am I crazy? Or crazy like a fox?

Actually, that's an excellent point! The 'payback' time for all the parts to make the Elio a hybrid (motor, controller, battery, etc...), and that's assuming that the conversion actually did increase the mpg and not just make it a tail-heavy part-time AWD, could be a significant period of time. Probably won't stop me from trying it though (can't follow a recipe when I'm cooking either...always gotta jack with it.). Going to retire in a few years, and I'll have plenty of time to tinker with my new 3-wheeled guinea pig.

I don't think you are crazy and it sounds like a fun project to tinker with even if it never really pays for itself. However I doubt a hub motor would be the best idea as that hub motor will add a good bit of unsprung weight to the very back of this very light vehicle which would not likely be a good idea

A more traditional electric motor mounted in front of the tire and connected via a belt or chain drive would very likely be a better overall solution. This configuration would place the extra mass of the electric motor further forward which would help with vehicle balance. At the same time not having a hub motor would also avoid having all that extra unsprung weight, which would really damage the handling, as that extra mass bouncing up and down would be very difficult to dampen effectively.

 

[AriLea]

I don't think you are crazy . . . electric motor mounted in front of the tire and connected via a belt or chain drive would very likely be a better overall solution.

Nice, A parallel hybrid, or plug-in hybrid, or consider it an EV with extended range. A Warp7 DC motor and Zilla controller would be just about right for full EV power. I'd put an overrunning clutch at the hub. The only difference to a Prius is that you have more EV-Only acceleration and you manually control which is driving you forward. A careful install of your controller at the foot petal and an extra alternator/re-charger is about all you could add.
Now, just to put it on the table, I guarantee when the Elio comes out, the EV community will do this, and some kits will come out. After that it's a no-brainer for those to become add-ons after-market wise. As an OEM product, a parallel Hybrid is a gargantuan amount of work to get it to be built-proof for the general public, a liability nightmare, so it would take a couple years for ElioMotors to have that as an option.

 

[NSTG8R]

I don't think you are crazy and it sounds like a fun project to tinker with even if it never really pays for itself. However I doubt a hub motor would be the best idea as that hub motor will add a good bit of unsprung weight to the very back of this very light vehicle which would not likely be a good idea

A more traditional electric motor mounted in front of the tire and connected via a belt or chain drive would very likely be a better overall solution. This configuration would place the extra mass of the electric motor further forward which would help with vehicle balance. At the same time not having a hub motor would also avoid having all that extra unsprung weight, which would really damage the handling, as that extra mass bouncing up and down would be very difficult to dampen effectively.

I did run across the "unsprung weight" issue be in the "con" column for the hub motors when doing a little surfing after the original post, and I do like your motor fwd of the wheel with belts suggestion....lots of different sizes (kw) to choose from. Maybe use something like a air conditioning clutch type deal to engage/disengage during accelerating or braking? Like I originally said, don't really need the rear wheel pushing all the time, just helping out the engine when the circumstances dictate additional hp would be a benefit. Arilea sounds like he has some EV experience, or at least hangs with some people that do. Actually, I'm glad I've got some time before picking up my Elio (that's a big fat lie!) so I can research this subject a bit deeper. Thanks for the great input guys!!

 

[AriLea]

Arilea sounds like he has some EV experience, or at least hangs with some people that do.

Yep I follow the EVDL etc. The 'Detalidon Formula' is an EV platform. Add sketchup then google it :-)
My Atlantric is EV compatible in that I had large volumes for battery packs. But, I'm definitely more into cost effectiveness than EV ideology. ;-)

 

[NSTG8R]

Yep I follow the EVDL etc. The 'Detalidon Formula' is an EV platform. Add sketchup then google it
My Atlantric is EV compatible in that I had large volumes for battery packs. But, I'm definitely more into cost effectiveness than EV ideology. ;-)

Awesome! So that's what that is in your avatar pic! The Elio is kind of right in your wheelhouse, so to speak. Actually, I kinda dig the UFO model third row down on the right.

 

[AriLea]

Awesome! So that's what that is in your avatar pic! The Elio is kind of right in your wheelhouse, so to speak. Actually, I kinda dig the UFO model third row down on the right.

Yep, that original image was morphed out of the Riley XR3. The UFO was the most popular of the concept artwork I created. Unfortunately it wasn't good for a FWD-ICE drive, unless it got a major nose extension. But, it could accommodate RWD or EV power nicely. So instead I went to the Atlantric style, (also popular), for my tooling plug you see in the logo. The Atlantric is both EV and ICE-FWD compatible, as well as it accommodates motorcycle drive in single seat configuration. The Elio is helping me to not feel bad about the fact I can't continue the project for now. I'm hoping next year I can get back on it, but then drop it over an Elio chassis instead of other drive systems I'd contemplated.

I did kind of beat the subject to death in the AltC Designs thread in our Similar Vehicles part of the forum
http://www.elioowners.com/threads/altc-designs.1574/