Arcimoto

[RSchneider]

Honestly, the FUV must be compared to the Vanderhall. Both are fair weather vehicles. Both are three wheelers. Both are startups. Big difference is Vanderhall somehow got to market with customer deliverables way faster than FUV. Makes you wonder if Mark F is not that good at running a business if someone made a similar vehicle in a fraction of the time and got dealers all over the US. Plus allows people in everywhere but certain parts of the west coast to take a test drive without the FUV fee. Why did Vanderhall make it look so easy when FUV made it so hard? Plus why did FUV need public money to get their three wheeler to market when Vanderhall didn't?

Comparing FUV to Elio, makes FUV look like a success. Compared to Vanderhall, it's a failure. Maybe we need to discuss what it would take to get FUV to be as successful as Vanderhall. Then after that, go to Polaris.

 

[Rickb]

LOL! Very odd comparing Arcimoto’s mission statement, business model, vehicle model lineup (FUV, Deliverator, First Responder) and their customer demographics to Vanderhall’s model line-up and customer base. The only comparison is three wheels. IMHO. Better to compare the Vanderhall three wheeler platform to the Morgan and Slingshot. How many Vanderhall’s rolled off the assembly line in 2019? How many retail production Vanderhall’s delivered during their first year of production? How many units currently roll out per day The production scale target is 20K units per year when the new production facility is up and running. I like the Vanderhall, but cant’t afford a $35K boutique electric niche market three wheeler that I can’t get in and out of. It looks like a Fun minus the Utility Vehicle (FV). It’s not a vehicle I’d choose for daily commutes and COSTCO runs. I hope both Arcimoto and Vanderhall experience long term success.

 

[Rickb]

Arcimoto Key West FUV rentals are becoming extremely popular! My guess is the rental customers will ultimately buy one! Where can I rent a Vanderhall? Looks like a fun tour group.

 

[RSchneider]

customer demographics to Vanderhall’s model line-up and customer base.

What's the difference in the customer base? Both are fair weather three wheelers built for a niche audience. Both are an "and" vehicle. The Vanderhall is $25K and the FUV is $20K. So similar in price. I am not seeing where they are going after a different customer base.

How many Vanderhall’s rolled off the assembly line in 2019? How many retail production Vanderhall’s delivered during their first year of production? How many units currently roll out per day

Vanderhall is a private company, they are not required to report numbers. I do know that someone is buying them because there are dealers with them in stock.

The production scale target is 20K units per year when the new production facility is up and running.

When is that happening? Next year? Five years from now? Maybe based on if they sell well enough?

I like the Vanderhall, but cant’t afford a $35K boutique electric niche market three wheeler that I can’t get in and out of. It looks like a Fun minus the Utility Vehicle (FV).

So at least you have driven a Vanderhall. I asked before here and seemed that nobody has. Not every vehicle is for everyone. I particularly don't like Corvettes yet GM sells them like crazy (around 20K per year). On the other hand, your FUV is good for 100 miles. The Vanderhall is to be 200 miles.

Arcimoto Key West FUV rentals are becoming extremely popular!

So are electric scooter rentals in Key West. Honestly, they are all over the place as you know when you went there. So, I

Where can I rent a Vanderhall?

If you look up "Key West Vanderhall Rental" you can actually rent one. Plus if you just search, Vanderhall Rentals" there are a number of places you can rent then all over the US. To top it off, you can test drive one for free at a Vanderhall dealer.

I can see where Arcimoto can do well and that's great. I feel that they are missing the boat with not having dealers all over the US. They are missing out on a massive portion of the US market. Vanderhall gave up on their plan to sell direct and I think that was good move as just like with the FUV, it's a niche boutique market and you need to have a presence in many markets. Since FUV people seem to be like motorcycle people, then you'd think that powersports and motorcycle dealers would be the perfect place for the FUV's to be. The only place to test drive a FUV is at their HQ and only between 2-4 on Wednesdays and Thursdays. Really? There are 4 hours per week that you are permitted to test drive a FUV. Even you have to admit that makes no sense at all. Other than that, I have to hope for a FUV test drive that will be in my area.

I also don't understand why it took FUV, 12 years to get to market when it took Vanderhall 6. Plus Vanderhall is using a completely new form of chassis as opposed to the run of the mill tube frame that the FUV has.

So, I'm just comparing the FUV to something else that exists right now and took half the time to get to production with no public money. Plus both go after the same customer base as it's a fun to drive vehicle for the weekends in great weather conditions. As for Elio, much wider customer base. Thus the challenges are much harder than what FUV had to deal with. Thus why you have to compare apples to apples and the Elio is an orange.

 

[Maurtis]

He has the Z4 Smile. Same one I had when I bought my Z4. I was going to show how my Z4 could be driven all year.

When I gave up riding motorcycles and picked up my Miata, I was doing the same thing. I was determined to drive it year round, unless we had our once-a-year ice storm. And while she did fine as a year-round DD in Central Texas weather, the next year we picked up a beater Mazda3 to add to our fleet since my wife traded in her SUV for a Jaguar XFS and wanted something cheap to use for hauling the dogs, parking lot ding duty, etc. And now I find I split almost all of my driving 50/50 between the Miata and the Mazda3, LOL.

What's the difference in the customer base? Both are fair weather three wheelers built for a niche audience. Both are an "and" vehicle. The Vanderhall is $25K and the FUV is $20K. So similar in price. I am not seeing where they are going after a different customer base.

FWIW, the electric Vanderhall Edison starts at $35k, the $25k model is the bottom of the line gas powered Venice, according to their website.

I drove an FUV when they came through Austin in 2018 and it was a freaking blast! Unfortunately the range would not work well for me and my commute, but it was crazy fun.

I have not driven a Vanderhall of any flavor, but they are gorgeous. They also feel like they are shooting for a different niche. Low slung sports car stance and seating, upscale interior. Less people mover and more soul mover.

I can see how some could see them in the same market, both have three wheels and seat two people. To me they look and seem different enough to not share the same buyers, but I am no expert in the field, just a gut feeling.

And in the end we are all here because we are interested in the Elio, which we cannot have

 

[Rickb]

apples to apples three wheeler comparison?, same fun/utility daily use?, appeals to the same market demographics?

I share Maurtis’ disappointment regarding our Elio’s.

 

[RSchneider]

apples to apples three wheeler comparison ?, same fun/utility daily use ?, appeals to the same market demographics?
View attachment 23949

Thanks for showing that. Same demographic. Play toy for the weekend when the weather is perfect.

 

[RSchneider]

I have not driven a Vanderhall of any flavor, but they are gorgeous.

I looked it up. San Antionio has a Vanderhall Dealer and it's a Certified Service center. They have five Vanderhalls in stock and you can test drive them for free. It's actually called the "Alamo Cycle Plex". They are even a Slingshot Dealer. Found out they have two used Slingshots in stock. It would be super cool if FUV was represented as they could have 5 of them there ready for you to buy right now. If they did have a FUV dealer at that location, you are only 55 miles away from it. So, that's well within the range of a FUV. Plus you can run that FUV at a cool 85 mph on I-35 going back and forth to the dealer. Super FUV.

Then there's that FUV ripoff that's from Austin. So I wonder how FUV will deal with that since they teamed up with Club Car for their delivinator and Dropcar for rentals.

 

[Samuel Gompers]

Arcimoto thread or not, the FUV fails on multiple counts. Compared to a motorcycle, it loses in cost, range, performance, and availability. Compared to gasoline-powered trikes, it loses on range, performance, and availability. It is close on price, depending on the vehicle being compared.

One trike that we haven't been including is the Yamaha Niken. That is probably even a better comparison. It is a leaning 3-wheeler. Lower priced than the FUV, way better performance and range, and it is currently available. A friend of mine just test-rode one, and loved it.

Vanderhall, both as a company and as a vehicle, wins every comparison with Arcimoto. Better product, no profanity in the advertising and promotion, better use of resources and time-to-market. The Blackjack @ $25k is the base model, but it's still far better equipped that the FUV Evergreen. And it exists. As does the Venice and the Carmel. I'm not so certain about the Edision2, the electric version.

The Arcimoto will not extend the riding season for motorcyclists, because it doesn't do what motorcycles do. It might extend the season for people who ride 250cc and smaller scooters. In fact, that is probably the best comparison for the FUV - small scooters. The use cases are very similar: City only, short range, low speeds, some enclosed storage space, step-through design, inexpensive operating costs, easy maneuverability and parking.

The Vanderhall products come much closer to aligning with the both the motorcyclist and sports car driver demographic, with more emphasis on fun, performance, and freedom (which includes range), and image. While there are no Vanderhall dealers within 200 miles of where I live, there are 7 dealers within 500 miles. And if I did have to buy from a dealer 500 miles away, I could drive it home in less than a day.

 

[RSchneider]

While there are no Vanderhall dealers within 200 miles of where I live, there are 7 dealers within 500 miles.

Then the thing is, how far away is the closest FUV dealer? We all know there is just one and you only drive it on a Wednesday or Thursday between 2 and 4 in the afternoon.

For the Niken, it's too much of a motorcycle and only an autocycle in the theory, that it has three wheels. In Europe it's still considered a motorcycle. I doubt a person would be looking at it and comparing it to a Vanderhall or FUV. I look at it as the person that buys it is looking for a niche of a niche in the motorcycle industry.