All Wheel Drive Elio?

[Ty]

Here are some real numbers. My ZAP scooter has a 3KW wheel motor and 20 X 40A LiFePO4 cells which cost @ $2400 together. Not counting the price of the scooter or controller and charger. It will go 50mph for @ 30 minutes or 30mph for @ 60 minutes. It will not push an Elio, downhill with a tailwind.
The battery, 1KW motor, controller on my e-bike imported from China cost $1400, 5 years ago. e-bike will go 30mph for @ 1 hour. Many of my friends have been running electric cars for the past 10+ years. 114 miles at 60mph will cost you $20K in parts, plus the car and the labour to build it. This is not math, but real world experience. For the search challenged; http://www.canev.com/

With the math, I chose a 3,500 Watt motor and four high capacity, lightweight batteries. The intention was to merely provide the 4.55 horsepower (~3,400 Watts) to help maintain speed. You could also use a less powerful motor with a longer run time but would obviously get less assistance.

The Elio will be more aerodynamic than you on a scooter, I'd bet. I don't discount real-world examples though. The college used $3,000 in parts to build their hub motor based hybrid conversion kit. Check this out - http://www.torquenews.com/1075/mtsu...diy-plug-hybrid-conversion-kit-nearly-any-car

This would be a bit cheaper on the much lighter, single rear wheel Elio. I was just trying to make about the same thing with off-the-shelf parts. However, I much prefer the College's setup. Think if someone made a version of that for the Elio with, say, 30 minutes of drive time or maybe an hour. Most commutes are less than that. I know that you can't save enough fuel to pay for the mod but it'd be fun anyway. Imagine a 200 ft. lb boost!

 

[Reid3400]

With the math, I chose a 3,500 Watt motor and four high capacity, lightweight batteries. The intention was to merely provide the 4.55 horsepower (~3,400 Watts) to help maintain speed. You could also use a less powerful motor with a longer run time but would obviously get less assistance.

The Elio will be more aerodynamic than you on a scooter, I'd bet. I don't discount real-world examples though. The college used $3,000 in parts to build their hub motor based hybrid conversion kit. Check this out - http://www.torquenews.com/1075/mtsu...diy-plug-hybrid-conversion-kit-nearly-any-car

This would be a bit cheaper on the much lighter, single rear wheel Elio. I was just trying to make about the same thing with off-the-shelf parts. However, I much prefer the College's setup. Think if someone made a version of that for the Elio with, say, 30 minutes of drive time or maybe an hour. Most commutes are less than that. I know that you can't save enough fuel to pay for the mod but it'd be fun anyway. Imagine a 200 ft. lb boost!

I agree that an Elio is more aerodynamic than a scooter. This was a huge shock to me when we found a Miata will get better mileage than a Goldwing with 2 people on it. I have watched my friend build and export electric vehicles all over the world for the past 20+ years. Many times, I have come close to building one, just to go 50 miles, 2-3 times per week. Friends who drive up to 80 miles to work and back, 5 days per week, still do not break even before they need a new set of cells. After 20 years, they will break even. The shorter the distance the HIGHER the cost per charge/discharge cycle because the cell replacement is based on cycles.
I live on a 16% hill. I do not think a 10KW system will push a 1500lb vehicle up this hill without a transmission. My 60V scooter barely makes it home with the voltage still above the knee of 3.2V per cell. I would love to see an all electric Elio for short trips, but as we all know a substantial set of batteries is only equivalent to the energy of a very small amount of gasoline.

 

[Ty]

I agree that an Elio is more aerodynamic than a scooter. This was a huge shock to me when we found a Miata will get better mileage than a Goldwing with 2 people on it. I have watched my friend build and export electric vehicles all over the world for the past 20+ years. Many times, I have come close to building one, just to go 50 miles, 2-3 times per week. Friends who drive up to 80 miles to work and back, 5 days per week, still do not break even before they need a new set of cells. After 20 years, they will break even. The shorter the distance the HIGHER the cost per charge/discharge cycle because the cell replacement is based on cycles.
I live on a 16% hill. I do not think a 10KW system will push a 1500lb vehicle up this hill without a transmission. My 60V scooter barely makes it home with the voltage still above the knee of 3.2V per cell. I would love to see an all electric Elio for short trips, but as we all know a substantial set of batteries is only equivalent to the energy of a very small amount of gasoline.

I don't want an all electric Elio as I don't think even a $3,000 would EVER pay for itself.. ($3/gal gas / 84mpg = $0.035 per mile so $3000 would take 85,714 miles to pay for itself) Okay, so, it would eventually pay for itself. I just thought it would be a kick to have an inexpensive method to maybe sometimes be able to run all electric or to augment the torque of the Elio's motor. Those electric motors the college used were 200 ft lbs each. To equal the Elio, not only would you use one instead of two motors but you'd also only need a motor half as powerful. If I could get a motor capable of even 25 ft lbs of force, it would be significant in the Elio.

 

[DAVID BROWER]

IT COULD BE DONE HYDRAULICALLY WITH AN ENGINE DRIVEN PUMP
AND DIRECT DRIVE MOTOR ON THE BACK WHEEL .

 

['lio]

CRAZY IDEA TIME
Would a person sitting in the backseat be able to impart enough meaningful power through a bicycle chain type set up to help keep the car traveling at, say, 60MPH? How much actual power will it require to maintain speed and would a person be able to make a noticeable contribution to fuel savings?

Technically, the whole Elio could be converted to pedal/electric hybrid power, though an even lighter frame would be better of course and financially that would not make much sense (but the technology is there). The power required depends on weight and aerodynamics, the more those two can be improved the less will be required, same as with ICE based vehicles:

Raht Racer velomobile may let riders pedal “as fast as a car"
http://www.gizmag.com/raht-racer-velomobile/36222/

 

[Reid3400]

Technically, the whole Elio could be converted to pedal/electric hybrid power, though an even lighter frame would be better of course and financially that would not make much sense (but the technology is there). The power required depends on weight and aerodynamics, the more those two can be improved the less will be required, same as with ICE based vehicles:

Raht Racer velomobile may let riders pedal “as fast as a car"
http://www.gizmag.com/raht-racer-velomobile/36222/

View attachment 6046

Technically, the whole Raht Racer could be converted to ICE power, though a HEAVIER frame would be better of course and financially that would make sense (the technology is there). The power required depends on weight and aerodynamics, the more those two can be improved the less will be required, same as with pedal based vehicles:

 

['lio]

Technically, the whole Raht Racer could be converted to ICE power, though a HEAVIER frame would be better of course and financially that would make sense (the technology is there). The power required depends on weight and aerodynamics, the more those two can be improved the less will be required, same as with pedal based vehicles:

Converting pedelec vehicles to run with combustion engines would not even remotely make sense…

 

[Lil4X]

There might be another option born out of current F1 technology: the "power unit" (no longer just an internal combustion engine) supplemented by a complex set of turbocharger, motor-generator unit, waste heat recovery system and a "energy bank" (think battery or large capacitor here). The idea at Elio scale would be to build an efficient turbocharged engine that uses both exhaust and braking energy to charge an "energy bank" that is used to spool up the turbo from low RPM, eliminating turbo lag and providing full power at a touch of that right pedal. Once exhaust gas pressure is sufficient to drive the turbo, the electric motor drops out - making it necessary for only a few seconds during hard acceleration from low speed.

Considering that you aren't driving an F1 car, the remaining capacity of the turbo could be directed to a battery/capacitor that can drive a rear wheel electric motor, improving the launch performance of the vehicle - again for just a few seconds until the autocycle reaches cruising speed, at which it would shut down and allow the motor-generator driven by exhaust gas to continue to charge the energy bank. Here's a look at how it's done by M-B in their 2015 F1 program: http://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/car/pu106a-hybrid/

For generalized details, http://www.racecar-engineering.com/articles/f1/2014-f1-the-power-unit-explained/2/

 

[Hotscoots]

Interesting conversation , but my Elio will never see the snow . However , I do think the current design is perfectly adequate for light snow days .

 

[FluidmotionA9]

ZTR potential. That would be a hoot.

Whats ZTR?