After Job Losses Local Lawmaker Wants Elio Investigation

[Samalross]

Meanwhile, in my town, a company almost nobody knows about, with conflicting design goals and no publicly verifiable prototypes, mules, final designs, etc., and with no detailed production engineering work, has maneuvered to purchase the old Mitsubishi plant, done earlier this year. As far as I can tell, they've been propped up by money from the founder's stepmom in the Florida legislature, been paid by the founder's dad's company to do some make-work, and are now at least 80% a collection of buzzwords and hype. Their website's text reads like a committee of pointy-haired-bosses and consultant drafted it about nothing in particular. From the state of Illinois and the municipal governments, they've managed to roll up somewhere around $50 million in tax deferments and credits.

First, they proposed a cheap (appx. $25K) mid-engined sports coupe (?) that was nonetheless high-mileage (60 mpg) for 2013 production, then it was an electric performance sedan, then they announced a ridiculous modular bolt-together frame/body assembly concept (which they still are running with publicly), and most recently they've insinuated that their cars will be self-driving.

Founded in 2009, promising nothing produced until 2020. Changed its name twice before. Finances are nebulous at best. Absolutely no disclosed sales or marketing models, no indication of a target market or customer base.

But- Hey!- it's all fine, and the press and politicians have been largely uncritical of it, their schizophrenic engineering proposals notwithstanding, because it's electric, and it's (maybe) autonomous, and that's all cool stuff. Just like the recent spate of [devices that 'make' substances from the air], no one in the media seems to wonder about feasibility of design, be it by physics possibility or by engineering practicality or by business viability; they just run with it and promote it breathlessly if it tickles their collective fancy.

The Elio design, on the other hand, is gas powered, and small, and cheap. Not sexy enough. It's actually at its base a design far more likely to work- physics, engineering, marketability- without additional technology development than most of the EV proposals (and even currently offered models), but it's fundamentally boring to the unwashed masses that glean their understanding of science and technology from the likes of popularized media like Star Trek and personalities like Nye and Tyson and Musk. Boring is good to any competent engineer, if you're pursuing goals of cost and reliability and a solid chance of design success, but the fools who can't help but whip their heads 'round to gawk at anything shiny just see it as yesterday's tech, and continue to laud the likes of flying cars and (supposedly, but probably-not, imminent) missions to Mars.

Thintelligence, hard at work. I shouldn't be surprised by that anymore, but somehow I seem to remain intuitively naive regarding the intellects of others despite my more conscious cynicism.

Is Stu Lichter involved?

 

[Sailor Dog]

Where's your link SD?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle

Just googled "motor vehicle definition". LA regulations are another story!!!

 

[TheAsterisk!]

Is Stu Lichter involved?

Wisecracks aside, if anyone were ever able to find out who's backing them, I'd be interested. Their only readily disclosed investment was a $1-$1.2 million grant from Florida some years back, and they paid about $2 million for a fairly modern plant and lot, with the equipment going for a separate but undisclosed sum. (Right now, the old production outflow lot is just being used to house a ton of VW diesels and an unreasonable number of Canada geese.)

The company is Rivian Automotive, if anyone gets inquisitive, but was called Avera at one point, and may have also been called Mainstream Motors a ways back. I wasn't kidding about their website, either; it looks and reads like something an aimless software startup would toss up until it knew what it would eventually be publishing.

 

[Rickb]

Looks like Rivian is a technology company focusing on the future of transportation and developing a flexible electric vehicle platform........visionary. If one is interested in the future of EVs Rivian may a new startup to watch.

 

[Elio Amazed]

Just googled "motor vehicle definition". LA regulations are another story!!!

From a Google Search for "motor vehicle definition"...
https://www.google.com/#q=motor+vehicle+definition

mo·tor ve·hi·cle
noun
noun: motor vehicle; plural noun: motor vehicles; modifier noun: motor-vehicle; noun: motorvehicle; plural noun: motorvehicles

1. a road vehicle powered by an internal combustion engine; an automobile.

The semi-colon in that definition simply means "For Example".
In other words, even Google says that an Elio is a "Motor Vehicle".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's what the Feds have to say...
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/40/85.1703

§ 85.1703 Definition of motor vehicle.
(a) For the purpose of determining the applicability of section 216(2), a vehicle which is self-propelled and capable of transporting a person or persons or any material or any permanently or temporarily affixed apparatus shall be deemed a motor vehicle, unless any one or more of the criteria set forth below are met, in which case the vehicle shall be deemed not a motor vehicle:

(1) The vehicle cannot exceed a maximum speed of 25 miles per hour over level, paved surfaces; or

(2) The vehicle lacks features customarily associated with safe and practical street or highway use, such features including, but not being limited to, a reverse gear (except in the case of motorcycles), a differential, or safety features required by state and/or federal law; or

(3) The vehicle exhibits features which render its use on a street or highway unsafe, impractical, or highly unlikely, such features including, but not being limited to, tracked road contact means, an inordinate size, or features ordinarily associated with military combat or tactical vehicles such as armor and/or weaponry.

(b) Note that, in applying the criterion in paragraph (a)(2) of this section, vehicles that are clearly intended for operation on highways are motor vehicles. Absence of a particular safety feature is relevant only when absence of that feature would prevent operation on highways.
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And here's a few more...
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/motor vehicle

Definition of motor vehicle

1. : an automotive vehicle not operated on rails; especially : one with rubber tires for use on highways

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/motor+vehicle

motor vehicle
n.
A self-propelled conveyance with wheels and a motor, such as a car or truck, for use on roads.
American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2016 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.
motor vehicle
n
(Automotive Engineering) a road vehicle driven by a motor or engine, esp an internal-combustion engine
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged, 12th Edition 2014 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2011, 2014
mo′tor ve`hicle
n.
an automobile, truck, bus, or similar motor-driven conveyance.
[1885–90]
Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.

 

[Travelbuzz1]

Meanwhile, in my town, a company almost nobody knows about, with conflicting design goals and no publicly verifiable prototypes, mules, final designs, etc., and with no detailed production engineering work, has maneuvered to purchase the old Mitsubishi plant, done earlier this year. As far as I can tell, they've been propped up by money from the founder's stepmom in the Florida legislature, been paid by the founder's dad's company to do some make-work, and are now at least 80% a collection of buzzwords and hype. Their website's text reads like a committee of pointy-haired-bosses and consultant drafted it about nothing in particular. From the state of Illinois and the municipal governments, they've managed to roll up somewhere around $50 million in tax deferments and credits.

First, they proposed a cheap (appx. $25K) mid-engined sports coupe (?) that was nonetheless high-mileage (60 mpg) for 2013 production, then it was an electric performance sedan, then they announced a ridiculous modular bolt-together frame/body assembly concept (which they still are running with publicly), and most recently they've insinuated that their cars will be self-driving.

Founded in 2009, promising nothing produced until 2020. Changed its name twice before. Finances are nebulous at best. Absolutely no disclosed sales or marketing models, no indication of a target market or customer base.

But- Hey!- it's all fine, and the press and politicians have been largely uncritical of it, their schizophrenic engineering proposals notwithstanding, because it's electric, and it's (maybe) autonomous, and that's all cool stuff. Just like the recent spate of [devices that 'make' substances from the air], no one in the media seems to wonder about feasibility of design, be it by physics possibility or by engineering practicality or by business viability; they just run with it and promote it breathlessly if it tickles their collective fancy.

The Elio design, on the other hand, is gas powered, and small, and cheap. Not sexy enough. It's actually at its base a design far more likely to work- physics, engineering, marketability- without additional technology development than most of the EV proposals (and even currently offered models), but it's fundamentally boring to the unwashed masses that glean their understanding of science and technology from the likes of popularized media like Star Trek and personalities like Nye and Tyson and Musk. Boring is good to any competent engineer, if you're pursuing goals of cost and reliability and a solid chance of design success, but the fools who can't help but whip their heads 'round to gawk at anything shiny just see it as yesterday's tech, and continue to laud the likes of flying cars and (supposedly, but probably-not, imminent) missions to Mars.

Thintelligence, hard at work. I shouldn't be surprised by that anymore, but somehow I seem to remain intuitively naive regarding the intellects of others despite my more conscious cynicism.

Elio is not cheap, it is of good value.

 

[Samalross]

Elio is not cheap, it is of good value.

We hope

 

[TheAsterisk!]

Looks like Rivian is a technology company focusing on the future of transportation and developing a flexible electric vehicle platform........visionary. If one is interested in the future of EVs Rivian may a new startup to watch.

Having looked at their very few patents related to the silly bolt-together modular structure I mentioned above, I got the impression that they've retained no experienced structures engineers. It basically looked like they took a unibody design, cut the roof and front and rear off, and then proposed to bolt each back on with three to four bolts, turning it into a sort of half-hearted space frame, but with some stamped components.
The patent in question: link
The image in the filing that makes me twist up my face: link

I can see it either being strong, light but expensive (materials), but I don't see cheap, strong and light, and that's what would be required to do what they originally proposed it would do. Recall their first serious proposal was a mid-engined sports coupe seating four that would drive like a Porsche and get 60mpg- ICE- for about $25K sticker. I don't think Scaringe's (the CEO) MIT education was worth very much if he proposed that combination of design goals as more than an elaborate troll. I bring up the earlier proposals because that guy is still in charge, and I've yet to see any signs that his practical skills as either an engineer or as a manager have substantially bettered in the intervening years.

Happy to be wrong; even as a critic of EVs as sole vehicles (potentially good for a second car, though), a strong business in my town would be welcome. I just don't have any confidence whatsoever in the staff of Rivian based solely on the apparent fever dreams they've excitedly described as their future before.

Elio is not cheap, it is of good value.

I don't mean cheap as a pejorative; a low price point has a stigma to many people, especially those out to preen and prance and put on a show to their supposed erudition. The assumption amongst a fair number of the ignorant and the intellectually indolent is that the more expensive option is always and even necessarily better. I saw this all the time when I worked sales a few years back. Heaven help you if you try to save a customer money; they get all suspicious and deliberately buy a needlessly expensive option to reassure themselves that only the best will do for them. It's agonizing to watch emotional reasoning produce that sort of blowback when you're genuinely trying to help.

Cheap isn't a dirty word in my vocabulary, anyway. What's wrong with cheap? Even if cheap means light-duty or short design life, sometimes that can be an acceptable compromise. Sometimes, the more common good or solution is just overbuilt, and something less robust is still plenty robust enough. Apples to oranges, but my laptop is a Chromebook with modified firmware and a Linux installation; other than the lack of style, its specs basically make this $160 (after stacked discounts and a storage upgrade) cheap-o functionally equivalent to other lightweight ultraportable systems that would otherwise cost $700-$900 dollars if purchased from an OEM that shipped them configured for that purpose.

Maybe the glass is half full, maybe half empty, maybe the glass needs resizing. Maybe something's cheap, or maybe the alternatives are grossly overpriced, or maybe it's actually an issue of incomes or easy credit or something else entirely.

 

[Travelbuzz1]

Having looked at their very few patents related to the silly bolt-together modular structure I mentioned above, I got the impression that they've retained no experienced structures engineers. It basically looked like they took a unibody design, cut the roof and front and rear off, and then proposed to bolt each back on with three to four bolts, turning it into a sort of half-hearted space frame, but with some stamped components.
The patent in question: link
The image in the filing that makes me twist up my face: link

I can see it either being strong, light but expensive (materials), but I don't see cheap, strong and light, and that's what would be required to do what they originally proposed it would do. Recall their first serious proposal was a mid-engined sports coupe seating four that would drive like a Porsche and get 60mpg- ICE- for about $25K sticker. I don't think Scaringe's (the CEO) MIT education was worth very much if he proposed that combination of design goals as more than an elaborate troll. I bring up the earlier proposals because that guy is still in charge, and I've yet to see any signs that his practical skills as either an engineer or as a manager have substantially bettered in the intervening years.

Happy to be wrong; even as a critic of EVs as sole vehicles (potentially good for a second car, though), a strong business in my town would be welcome. I just don't have any confidence whatsoever in the staff of Rivian based solely on the apparent fever dreams they've excitedly described as their future before.

I don't mean cheap as a pejorative; a low price point has a stigma to many people, especially those out to preen and prance and put on a show to their supposed erudition. The assumption amongst a fair number of the ignorant and the intellectually indolent is that the more expensive option is always and even necessarily better. I saw this all the time when I worked sales a few years back. Heaven help you if you try to save a customer money; they get all suspicious and deliberately buy a needlessly expensive option to reassure themselves that only the best will do for them. It's agonizing to watch emotional reasoning produce that sort of blowback when you're genuinely trying to help.

Cheap isn't a dirty word in my vocabulary, anyway. What's wrong with cheap? Even if cheap means light-duty or short design life, sometimes that can be an acceptable compromise. Sometimes, the more common good or solution is just overbuilt, and something less robust is still plenty robust enough. Apples to oranges, but my laptop is a Chromebook with modified firmware and a Linux installation; other than the lack of style, its specs basically make this $160 (after stacked discounts and a storage upgrade) cheap-o functionally equivalent to other lightweight ultraportable systems that would otherwise cost $700-$900 dollars if purchased from an OEM that shipped them configured for that purpose.

Maybe the glass is half full, maybe half empty, maybe the glass needs resizing. Maybe something's cheap, or maybe the alternatives are grossly overpriced, or maybe it's actually an issue of incomes or easy credit or something else entirely.

How exhausting.

 

[Made in USA]

Getting back on topic, in the Elio release from Jan 3, 2013 they said: "Elio Motors, founded in 2008, will occupy one-third of the three million acre site.....". I wonder why local lawmakers aren't complaining that the other two thirds are not apparently doing anything. Seems like they could have rented some of it out by now. Maybe they have, I just haven't found it yet.