A Diesel?

[Ty]

W

A diesel engine would push mpg over 100mpg. I had a Ford 3/4 ton van, with a 351ci motor. I got 11mpg . I replaced that with a one ton Ford van ,( which weighs a ton more) with a 444ci diesel motor. I average 17mpg. 55% better fuel mileage.
Back in my dump truck driving days, I started out driving a gas engine truck, which could haul a 30,000 # payload. I burned up 100 gallons of gas a day.
My next truck was a diesel powered tri-axle, which hauled a payload of 40,000 lbs. I went thru 50 gallons of diesel fuel a day, hauling 10,000# more payload, and the truck weighed 8,000 # more empty than the empty gas powered truck.
If they installed a small diesel motor in the Elio , and geared it right to maximize the power curve,, I'm guessing 110-120 mpg!!
Maybe it would take a 6 to 8 speed transmission, and the diesel motors do cost more, but the fuel mileage would be way up there. And of course the diesel motors last much longer than gas burners. ( my 00 van has just turned 325k miles. No repairs to the motor as of yet, and does not burn any oil!)
Im excited about this car, I only came accross it 2 weeks ago. This car could save me a ton in fuel costs in my service business.

Cool. Welcome. I've also found diesels to be wonderful. The small amount of gas the Elio will go through makes it difficult to overcome any additional costs associated with diesels. But, the torque would wake up the Elio, I'd bet!

 

[StuartGrant]

I honestly don't understand the backlash about the idea of a diesel version of the Elio, it wouldn't prevent those who want a gasser from having one, and I bet 90% sold would be gasoline versions. If the market is there, and TDI VW's prove it is, Elio would be foolish to ignore it simply to appease those who have a dislike of diesels based on years of the old, unregulated, often 2 stroke diesels which were popular and economical back before 1990.

A diesel option for the Elio would probably be priced around $1500 or so using an off the shelf option, make around 45hp/75ft-lbs of torque and get around 110mpg and weigh around 80lbs more at the curb with DPF and 2.5 gallon DEF tank (Using SWAG numbers), this would cost around $.036/mile assuming $4/gallon, while a gasoline engine would cost around $.044/mile assuming $3.70/gallon (This is the typical summer gas prices around me this year.) so payoff time is around 190k miles after you factor in DEF.

If you plan to own and drive the car till it dies that might make sense, if you're the type of person who get's one scratch on a car and has to trade it in it certainly doesn't.

The diesel version would also likely have much higher towing capacity if you add bigger brakes, so if you want to haul a heavy trailer to the dump or an ATV it would also make sense, but I don't see many people wanting to use the Elio for this frankly.

I've said I would love a diesel option, but I don't expect to get it unless I build it. Given how Elio eventually plans to expand into the European market they're probably already planning something in the long run which could trickle down to the US market as a premium option since the EU's diesel regulations and the current EPA reg's are very much in line with each other.

Environmentally the diesel would be the better option since unlike the gas option where Elio can get away without using a catalytic converter and many other emissions requirements real cars have, all Diesels must comply with 2010 EPA regulation, even offroad diesel engines.

 

[CheeseheadEarl]

Stuart, price check in the diesel aisle.

Better at least triple your $1500 guess, likely more.

Also gonna need a trans upgrade to handle the extra torque. More weight and $.

Don't get me wrong, Im not against an OPTION for diesel, it just doesnt make sense to me.

 

[AriLea]

Don't get me wrong, Im not against an OPTION for diesel, it just doesnt make sense to me.

yes, most people aren't optimistic the price would be low enough to justify the extra cost. As for EM I think they just don't have the time/resources to address it right now. But they have expressed interest in it for the future.
They will just have to build a business case for it. If the Elio is super popular as expected, they may well find the projected sales are big enough to justify production of such an engine.
It may be simply that there isn't enough reliable data to give a case for a business plan. After one year of production, I'm sure there will be enough to say yes or no.
And it's a bit more iffy when you consider that a Diesel, while good for Elio vehicle Sales, in effect it competes with the IAV engine. Meaning half the production output would loose a bit of that volume efficiency. Once the expected volume is high enough, then it doesn't hurt as much to split the sales.

This is the same reason (of many) that a low cost Inline Seater had not existed before; Creating one competed with other economy cars in the product lines. Since only a major maker could even consider high volume production, it was never going to happen. (An MC company would be more interested, except the USA liabilities scared them off)

Now that Elio will exist, now they MUST consider it, just to stay in the market. But I guarantee they will wait at least two years to 'bean-count' everything out.

Now also too, they are looking at the dismal sales of Smart Car as vindication that small and cheap isn't a good path, or so they hope. I think they are wrong, and that Elio will prove it. Considering 'Smart' thinking, it maybe as long as 4-5years before domestic US maker give up, concede the point and figure on competing. That's good for Elio.

But off shore, that's different because they have accessible markets that are much more 'small' oriented. But still they will wait a long time to break into the US market while Elio is so inexpensive. This is another reason why I think the EM business/price model is long term, It kills any off shore boldness.

 

[StuartGrant]

Stuart, price check in the diesel aisle.

Better at least triple your $1500 guess, likely more.

Also gonna need a trans upgrade to handle the extra torque. More weight and $.

Don't get me wrong, Im not against an OPTION for diesel, it just doesnt make sense to me.

Trans should be good for up to 140 ft-lbs of torque as it isn't being built from scratch like the engine as far as I know, no other car is producing as little power as the Elio is going to except the Smart and I doubt they'll share a transmission.

Small offroad Diesels in this power range are around $4000 new to the public, bulk purchase, subtract the cost of the original engine, add the price of a SCR system to meet Tier 4 should come in around $1500. MAYBE $2000 with a high markup.

And don't get me wrong, I don't think it will make sense to a lot of people, that's why I'm planning to build it myself eventually rather than expect Elio to do it for me, but the European market is a lot different than ours and if they expand there they will have to take a serious look at the diesel option. I wouldn't expect to see it otherwise, but it would be nice IN MY OPINION AS A DIESEL FAN. Do you know what I'd also like to see but know won't happen unless I make it happen? A Wankel Powered Elio. Or better yet, a stratified charge multi-fuel spark assisted wankel rotary diesel, yeah, that'd be the bee's knees.

 

[outsydthebox]

A few years back, Johnathan Goodman (look him up on youtube) was doing engine swaps in the H-1's & H-2's. Using the GM Duramax (modified) turbo diesels, he was getting over 30mpg & 700hp...in a HUMMER! People were paying 25K to have the conversion done, and paying for it in 2 years, in fuel savings. He was the brains behind this conversion:

 

[CheeseheadEarl]

If they use the Suzuki Celerio trans as speculated, the top engine in that car makes 97nm torque.

I looked up a Tier 4 Kubota D1803, about the size you mentioned. Its 49hp and 150nm (about 120ft lb) torque. Even if the trans will take the torque, its gotta be re geared for the lower speed diesel. 2700 max rpms on the Kubota.

Its also 432 lbs...

Looked a little for price, without any luck. A REMAN (not new) D1703 Tier 3 non turbo runs 3700 though.

Ill happily provide links when I get home tonight. Lets see yours...

 

[cortsdad2]

I think that Diesel would see pretty good improvements for City numbers, but not highway. If the engine in my Elio ever blows I might swap it out with something like this Kubota D722 I have laying around.

Many years ago I remember "Popular Mechanics" (or "Mechanics Illustrated") did a story about a college that put a 3 cylinder Kubota diesel in a Triumph Spitfire. I've always loved that concept and have aspired to try it someday... maybe you could do it and see how it works out for me!

 

[StuartGrant]

My numbers were a good bit off as I hadn't researched it in several months but this Yanmar (http://us.yanmar.com/products/indus...ble-speed-engines/interim-tier-4/4tnv88-bdsa/) sells new for $6000 (http://www.dieselenginetrader.com/search/engine_search.cfm) and makes 47.5 HP and 83lb-ft of torque,.

I don't have links to how I figured out the OEM level prices as they were SWAG based on what I know of the business from working in it.

 

[outsydthebox]

I think the next natural step for EM (in a few years) will be CNG. Loves high compression, burns really clean (greatly increasing engine life & longer oil change intervals) and with such good mpg's, you could get by with a small 2 gal. bottle ( very costly in larger sizes). I think it would be awesome in a "dual fuel" setup. The biggest expense would be the CNG pump installed at home.