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Why Is The Elio Roll-out Different?

Lil4X

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If you were going to build ONE Elio - as a custom trike with all of the basics, it would be an expensive proposition. At some point you'd still have to purchase all of the components, but it's the development process that gets them all working in harmony that's time-consuming and expensive.

Hand-forming the body and chassis would be expensive too, but even that would be subject to change as the design changes to accommodate running changes in the drivetrain, cockpit, and performance goals. You end up with a juggling act, trying to keep all of your initial design criteria in the air while adding features you find you want.

Then, you have to build a couple hundred a week. All of a sudden a whole flock of changes arrive on your doorstep as the realities of mass-production settle in. You don't just build 250 custom trikes a week, but develop a repeatable design that can be manufactured efficiently in a few hours. If you skipped that last step, new Elios oozing off the assembly line would be priced at about $70K and the whole idea of a low-cost, efficient commuter goes out the window and your market disappears before your eyes.

So the process of development is necessary,
  1. to work out critical compromises in the design to reach your Big 4 goals.
  2. to make it reliable and easy to service.
  3. to make it fast, cheap, and easy to manufacture.
  4. to determine if your plans can be fulfilled "in steel".
It's a nail-biting process because you don't change one item without it affecting a half-dozen others. If you want more performance, you end up with a bigger engine - more rugged transmission and CV joints - a more rigid frame to haul this load - bigger brakes to stop it - more complex suspension - power assist on some features, again to handle the increasing load - etc, etc, etc. Pretty soon you've built yourself a sub-compact car that gets 30 mpg and seats 2.

After a trip down that rabbit trail, you go back to square 1 and start over. There are some features you can't have to achieve your goals of fuel economy and purchase price. (Your Elio won't float or fly.) At the same time, you'll find tiny changes that can add value without violating your original criteria. The best way is to develop a solid platform to which options can be added to suit the individual buyer. That requires a good deal of forward-thinking to provide flexibility in the basic design for those who want aero (styling) packages, a turbo, or a moonroof at some point down the road.

All that has to be considered up front - and that's why product development is expensive. You can work out a lot of the problems in CAD, subject the virtual product to finite element analysis to determine what elements need to be beefed-up to handle the increased stress of a more powerful engine, or what can be lightened to reduce weight and improve economy. Still, when you get down to prototyping, you're going to find other things you can do "in steel" that escaped your notice on the virtual model.

Nobody builds ONE prototype, but as evidenced by the generations of Elio vehicles, there is a distinctive trail of progress from P1 - P5. We are reaching the point where we begin manufacturing a series of "early production" models - ones that are identical - for testing and certification. What EM learns from those will go into the "first production" models that will serve to work out the kinks in the manufacturing and assembly process and set the line. At that point, real production can start - but until this point, you haven't sold a single vehicle. Once the demo vehicles have been completed and the line begins a slow but sustainable rhythm, you and I can start anticipating our Elios for delivery and EM can start anticipating cash flow.

That's going to be a while yet - but I for one would rather see any design/manufacturing problems solved on the front end rather than keep hauling my Elio back to the dealer for recalls. A friend bought his wife a new Land Rover, but it spent more time on the back of a wrecker than it did in his driveway. You'd think for the price he paid, it could at least hold itself together through a week of grocery shopping. He sold it within 60 days - having had it in his garage less than a week. Elio can't afford that, especially with a ground-breaking product. As a start-up, they're going to have to be perfect, right out of the box and as reliable as a hammer. That takes development . . . and that takes time. Ask Mr. Porsche.
 

Coss

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Very well stated Lil4X, one part you also have to include; dealing with legalities. How much work and time has been spent getting the helmet laws, license endorsements and getting the government to accept a new category of vehicle (the Autocycle). Just one of the many unseen steps.
 

Jeff Porter

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The safety features have always been a part of the Elio, and they are not "extra" as you claim they are KenK.
Elio Motors is not going to build a safe and a non-safe model just for you.
The Elio is being built for the masses, not individuals.
If you have an argument with this I suggest you take it up with the people at Elio Motors.
Venting about it in here is not a subject we support in the Elio Owners Group.

It's important to point out that everyone is welcome here, and KenK should be able to vent about EM not offering a model with fewer safety features in an effort to get it to production sooner. There's nothing wrong with that at all.

Coss can disagree with KenK's thoughts, and state his opinion too, but KenK should be welcomed to state his opinion.
 

JEBar

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It's important to point out that everyone is welcome here, .

just a bit (OK, more than just a bit :confused: ) of a disagreement on that point .... everyone willing to conform with the standards of this community is welcome .... individuals who come as spammers or to sew dissension in most any format aren't welcome .... those who have been here for a while have no doubt noted a number of members who chose to move in that direction are no longer with us .... if a post remains on the open forum it should be a clear indicator that its content is within those standards
 

Lil4X

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For some years Chrysler assembled the Dodge Neon in Mexico on two separate lines - on for the US-spec car, the other for a similar vehicle for the local market that did not include the big load of environmental and safety features required for the US market.

The local-market version was built to compete with other entry-level cars in Mexico - and it sold for thousands of dollars less.
 

WilliamH

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For some years Chrysler assembled the Dodge Neon in Mexico on two separate lines - on for the US-spec car, the other for a similar vehicle for the local market that did not include the big load of environmental and safety features required for the US market.

The local-market version was built to compete with other entry-level cars in Mexico - and it sold for thousands of dollars less.

OK! So if someone wants the less safe, non- American spec version Elio they can go to wherever it's made and buy it there.....
When available :)
 

Rickb

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In reality the Elio is an enclosed motorcycle and will be safer than an open traditional trike, but unless it has a NASCAR engineered roll cage it can only be so safe and that should be as safe as possible.
 

Lil4X

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Oddly enough, the down-spec'd Neon benefited by the experience of the US model. But all those emission controls, power, and safety items required by US law simply put it out of reach of buyers in Mexico and Latin America where the rules were more . . . flexible. As much as $4K could be cut from the base price of the car . . . which gives you an idea of what our federally mandated standards cost. Of course that car couldn't be imported into the US . . .
 

John Painter

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OK! So if someone wants the less safe, non- American spec version Elio they can go to wherever it's made and buy it there.....
When available :)

Like this one? :D
3138418081_cc232c703f_m.jpg
 
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Ty

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If you were going to build ONE Elio - as a custom trike with all of the basics, it would be an expensive proposition. At some point you'd still have to purchase all of the components, but it's the development process that gets them all working in harmony that's time-consuming and expensive.

Hand-forming the body and chassis would be expensive too, but even that would be subject to change as the design changes to accommodate running changes in the drivetrain, cockpit, and performance goals. You end up with a juggling act, trying to keep all of your initial design criteria in the air while adding features you find you want.

Then, you have to build a couple hundred a week. All of a sudden a whole flock of changes arrive on your doorstep as the realities of mass-production settle in. You don't just build 250 custom trikes a week, but develop a repeatable design that can be manufactured efficiently in a few hours. If you skipped that last step, new Elios oozing off the assembly line would be priced at about $70K and the whole idea of a low-cost, efficient commuter goes out the window and your market disappears before your eyes.

So the process of development is necessary,
  1. to work out critical compromises in the design to reach your Big 4 goals.
  2. to make it reliable and easy to service.
  3. to make it fast, cheap, and easy to manufacture.
  4. to determine if your plans can be fulfilled "in steel".
It's a nail-biting process because you don't change one item without it affecting a half-dozen others. If you want more performance, you end up with a bigger engine - more rugged transmission and CV joints - a more rigid frame to haul this load - bigger brakes to stop it - more complex suspension - power assist on some features, again to handle the increasing load - etc, etc, etc. Pretty soon you've built yourself a sub-compact car that gets 30 mpg and seats 2.

After a trip down that rabbit trail, you go back to square 1 and start over. There are some features you can't have to achieve your goals of fuel economy and purchase price. (Your Elio won't float or fly.) At the same time, you'll find tiny changes that can add value without violating your original criteria. The best way is to develop a solid platform to which options can be added to suit the individual buyer. That requires a good deal of forward-thinking to provide flexibility in the basic design for those who want aero (styling) packages, a turbo, or a moonroof at some point down the road.

All that has to be considered up front - and that's why product development is expensive. You can work out a lot of the problems in CAD, subject the virtual product to finite element analysis to determine what elements need to be beefed-up to handle the increased stress of a more powerful engine, or what can be lightened to reduce weight and improve economy. Still, when you get down to prototyping, you're going to find other things you can do "in steel" that escaped your notice on the virtual model.

Nobody builds ONE prototype, but as evidenced by the generations of Elio vehicles, there is a distinctive trail of progress from P1 - P5. We are reaching the point where we begin manufacturing a series of "early production" models - ones that are identical - for testing and certification. What EM learns from those will go into the "first production" models that will serve to work out the kinks in the manufacturing and assembly process and set the line. At that point, real production can start - but until this point, you haven't sold a single vehicle. Once the demo vehicles have been completed and the line begins a slow but sustainable rhythm, you and I can start anticipating our Elios for delivery and EM can start anticipating cash flow.

That's going to be a while yet - but I for one would rather see any design/manufacturing problems solved on the front end rather than keep hauling my Elio back to the dealer for recalls. A friend bought his wife a new Land Rover, but it spent more time on the back of a wrecker than it did in his driveway. You'd think for the price he paid, it could at least hold itself together through a week of grocery shopping. He sold it within 60 days - having had it in his garage less than a week. Elio can't afford that, especially with a ground-breaking product. As a start-up, they're going to have to be perfect, right out of the box and as reliable as a hammer. That takes development . . . and that takes time. Ask Mr. Porsche.


Well said. I don't know why, but you got me thinking about something... IF you could get the Elio to actually float, it would be neat if the front fenders were designed a little more like an upside down Nike Swoosh that you could rotate around once in the water so the car would ski on the front end. You could use some kind of PTO to drive an impeller that would blow out this rear/sides similar to the new exhaust so it would go like a jet ski.

Anyway, it's your fault for making my mind wander about and coming to the weird Elio/Jet ski combo... (Yeah, a retractable or removable roof panel would be great too) :rolleyes:
 
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