What Would It Take To Go Electric Elio?

[RSchneider]

Coincidence? You ass.u.me Rousch was contracted. I recall EM contracting a bunch of guys to assemble the 2 or 3 E’s (no engine/drive trains) that were going to be sent for testing (maybe by Rousch? another assumption) and one of those employees issued statements to include major issues with parts, frame, and body panel fit with little direction by Elio.

Also, It was stated that Elio used the $2.5Million you reference to pay down debt not contract with Rousch.

Roush did not build the cars. That was someone else. I can tell you that from my experience, there's no way Elio would have had the knowledge, manpower and software to make a unibody. So, someone had to design it and Roush has the ability to do it. Again, a coincidence that the one company that has the ability to do this, gets an announcement right after the $16M was raised and then this whole complete new car was introduced.

All you have to do is look at all of the screen shots Elio made late in 2016 and 2017. There was a major change in the design of the car. It went from a small homebuilt to a polished production unit. Elio has $57K in computers and software. So, a single software license for what Elio shows on the screenshots would easily cost $30K for all of the advanced surfacing that they have. Plus one guy could never do it by himself because there's nobody on the planet with that ability. Maybe a group of 5-6 but not 1. So, that's easily $80K in just software licenses and expect $30K in computers. In the end, someone designed a brand new car in about 3 months and all fingers point to Roush.

I suggest you go to Detroit and see the Roush facility. Once you do, you'll see that they have more than enough ability to do what Elio needed in the timeframe the demanded. I would also say that it needs a few more revisions until it is released for actual production tooling (not prototyping tooling which is what has happened to this point). Plus Elio will have to make some actual steel body panels because as of now they have not. That requires the same type of advanced surfacing which Elio does not have.

As for the $2.5M, I bet they threw about $300K to Roush just to get what Pat suggested (using an off the shelf motor).

You can believe what you want but the engineer in me sees much more experience and knowledge put into the Elio design ever since Roush was announced as an engineering supplier. before that, it looks like something I'd do in my house with $20K in software and a $5K computer. Trust me, you don't want me designing a high volume production car from scratch and think I can do it right. I know when yo wave the white flag and hire that out.

 

[Rickb]

Roush did not build the cars. That was someone else. I can tell you that from my experience, there's no way Elio would have had the knowledge, manpower and software to make a unibody. So, someone had to design it and Roush has the ability to do it. Again, a coincidence that the one company that has the ability to do this, gets an announcement right after the $16M was raised and then this whole complete new car was introduced.

All you have to do is look at all of the screen shots Elio made late in 2016 and 2017. There was a major change in the design of the car. It went from a small homebuilt to a polished production unit. Elio has $57K in computers and software. So, a single software license for what Elio shows on the screenshots would easily cost $30K for all of the advanced surfacing that they have. Plus one guy could never do it by himself because there's nobody on the planet with that ability. Maybe a group of 5-6 but not 1. So, that's easily $80K in just software licenses and expect $30K in computers. In the end, someone designed a brand new car in about 3 months and all fingers point to Roush.

I suggest you go to Detroit and see the Roush facility. Once you do, you'll see that they have more than enough ability to do what Elio needed in the timeframe the demanded. I would also say that it needs a few more revisions until it is released for actual production tooling (not prototyping tooling which is what has happened to this point). Plus Elio will have to make some actual steel body panels because as of now they have not. That requires the same type of advanced surfacing which Elio does not have.

As for the $2.5M, I bet they threw about $300K to Roush just to get what Pat suggested (using an off the shelf motor).

You can believe what you want but the engineer in me sees much more experience and knowledge put into the Elio design ever since Roush was announced as an engineering supplier. before that, it looks like something I'd do in my house with $20K in software and a $5K computer. Trust me, you don't want me designing a high volume production car from scratch and think I can do it right. I know when yo wave the white flag and hire that out.

My belief is based on EM’s own reporting, not assumptions and bets.
From EM’s SEC Filing 12/31/2017:

ESG Engineering (Paul Elio & Hari Lyer partnership) was paid millions for the Elio vehicle design, engineering, and strategic operations while
contracting with Technosports Creative to build Elio prototypes (P1-P5) and thee engineering prototypes (E1A, E1B,E1C) and certain other manufactured parts with no mention of Rousch Engineering. You are correct in saying that if Rousch Engineering had been involved we would be in a totally different place.

 

[RSchneider]

My belief is based on EM’s own reporting, not assumptions and bets.
From EM’s SEC Filing 12/31/2017:
View attachment 23219
ESG Engineering (Paul Elio & Hari Lyer partnership) was paid millions for the Elio vehicle design, engineering, and strategic operations while
contracting with Technosports Creative to build Elio prototypes (P1-P5) and thee engineering prototypes (E1A, E1B,E1C) and certain other manufactured parts with no mention of Rousch Engineering. You are correct in saying that if Rousch Engineering had been involved we would be in a totally different place.

Have you ever seen ESG or their facility? ESG has been operating out of a residential home for years and moved out of their last address in 2010. As for Technosports, they are not of the same ability as Roush.They are great at building those special prototypes but not close to Roush. Also, you see no other mention of the other companies that Elio has paid. Someone did all of the molds, wiring harnesses, etc. Even Aisin, Hyundai and Linamar have been partners and no mention of them. They had to of done something. So not every company is going to me mentioned in detail as to what they have done. I do know this, in 2016, Elio spent way more on engineering than they did any other year (even combine all of them and 2016 beats it). So, Roush is one that is great at what they do buy you better be ready to spend because they deal with big corporations thus they charge the appropriate rate.

Again, Roush will only work when the money is there. If you are a company like Elio, you will be doing a net 30. Go past that, they will let you go a few times and after that, it's prepay.

 

[Sethodine]

Not related to the current discussion, but I wanted to throw in my 2 cents about an electric Elio.

Firstly, just make it single engine, FWD like other modern 2WD EVs.

Secondly, it will have to wait for the next generation of batteries to mature. Tesla, Dyson, and several other companies are pursuing solid state batteries with lower production costs, lower safety issues, and higher energy density. Solid State batteries will allow an Elio EV to keep costs down while having long enough range to be useful. I expect it will be five years before we see these batteries in production cars, but Tesla just bought Maxwell Electronics in order to aquire their battery tech, so they might announce something much sooner.

Personally I think an electric Elio would be lots of fun to drive, but I am still looking forward to the Gas version (for when I want to go further than my Leaf can go).

 

[pistonboy]

Not related to the current discussion, but I wanted to throw in my 2 cents about an electric Elio.

Firstly, just make it single engine, FWD like other modern 2WD EVs.

Secondly, it will have to wait for the next generation of batteries to mature. Tesla, Dyson, and several other companies are pursuing solid state batteries with lower production costs, lower safety issues, and higher energy density. Solid State batteries will allow an Elio EV to keep costs down while having long enough range to be useful. I expect it will be five years before we see these batteries in production cars, but Tesla just bought Maxwell Electronics in order to aquire their battery tech, so they might announce something much sooner.

Personally I think an electric Elio would be lots of fun to drive, but I am still looking forward to the Gas version (for when I want to go further than my Leaf can go).

Maxwell Technologies is also involved with supercapacitors which can both provide and absorb very high currents, higher currents than batteries. Supercapacitors can supply high currents for fast acceleration and absorb high currents from regenerative braking. Power passes between the supercapacitors and batteries at a rate the batteries can accommodate. Maxwell Technologies is already contracting with a European auto company to do just that. Thus Tesla gets a company that already knows how to do this.

 

[booboo]

14900 and Rainbow Laser Beams

https://www.eliomotors.com/

 

[BaldGuy]

There now is an electric option. However, there is still a link to the gas version. I assume both are in the works. Which is good for people who are "locked in" in that low low price of around 7300 (or something similar).

If the gas tank filler is on the left, I will probably still go gas. If not, electric.

 

[booboo]

Not related to the current discussion, but I wanted to throw in my 2 cents about an electric Elio.

Firstly, just make it single engine, FWD like other modern 2WD EVs.

Secondly, it will have to wait for the next generation of batteries to mature. Tesla, Dyson, and several other companies are pursuing solid state batteries with lower production costs, lower safety issues, and higher energy density. Solid State batteries will allow an Elio EV to keep costs down while having long enough range to be useful. I expect it will be five years before we see these batteries in production cars, but Tesla just bought Maxwell Electronics in order to aquire their battery tech, so they might announce something much sooner.

Personally I think an electric Elio would be lots of fun to drive, but I am still looking forward to the Gas version (for when I want to go further than my Leaf can go).

The 1st Solid State car to ever roll is here.

 

[Sethodine]

Wow, it's been a few years since my last post about an Electric Elio. My thoughts have changed a bit.

Firstly, I don't think they need solid state batteries. They say "three days of commuting", which is a bit nebulous but probably means 75-100 miles of range (80% of commutes are under 35 miles). For that range on that lightweight of vehicle, it should be entirely doable with today's chemistry. And the new price of $15k lines up with that.

Secondly, I think the elio is a great platform for electric. They might need to raise it a few inches, but fitting a battery skateboard under that body should be no problem. Furthermore, the low frontal cross section will give it much better efficiency at 70mph than a car, so it should have good range even at highway speeds. It would be like a Chevy Spark EV that is half the width.

Now, would I buy one?

Maybe. My Nissan Leaf is fully paid for and perfect for my commute already, so I don't see replacing it anytime soon. But it's at 80,000 miles and isn't getting younger. By the time the Electric Elio comes out (2025?) I may be ready to replace my Leaf. My wife's Leaf is in a much worse state than mine, and currently we plan to replace it with an electric F-150 Lightning next year. But that would still cost twice as much to commute with as my Leaf does now so it's not an ideal commuter.

Right off the bat, the Elio would qualify for the 2 & 3 wheel electric tax credit (10% of purchase price up to $2500). So really the Elio is more like $13,500. And unlike the car EV credit, this one is low enough that basically any working individual would qualify for the entire credit.

But if something can be said for Elio, it's that they are decent at lobbying. I expect the plan is to try and get autocycles covered by the standard EV tax credit, which is $7500 off. That would put this new Elio at about the same price they were promising all those years ago. Some versions of the updated tax credit would cut off the rebate at 30%, but that's would still put the electric Elio at around $10k. Certainly an easier price to swallow.

Is it all just a grift? Feels likely. I don't expect this to be built ever. But I like the dream, and Elio has always been a pleasant dream.

 

[Ace]

Firstly, I don't think they need solid state batteries. They say "three days of commuting", which is a bit nebulous but probably means 75-100 miles of range (80% of commutes are under 35 miles). For that range on that lightweight of vehicle, it should be entirely doable with today's chemistry. And the new price of $15k lines up with that.

It also says 150 miles of range on the web site:

TECHNICAL FEATURES INCLUDE:​

• 150 Mile Range
• Elio Safety Management System that includes three airbags, unibody frame, Anti-Lock Braking System, and Electronic Stability Control
• Front Engine / Front-Wheel Drive
• Top speed over 100 MPH
• Tire Sizes: Front: 135/80 R15 / Rear: 175/65 R15 with Tire Deflation Detection System