johnsnownw
Elio Addict
What does Musk have to do with the FUV?
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- Thread starter Ekh
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What does Musk have to do with the FUV?
LillyMayPatterson #1685 & #5648
Elio Addict
In my mind they are to ends to the same thing. Tesla being the high end and FUV the more affordable end of the electric vehicles being produced at this time. One is highly publicized and subsidized and the other still has their IPO money in the bank.
johnsnownw
Elio Addict
We'll have to disagree that the Tesla is highly subsidized. The tax credit only returns your own money, ZEV credits are available to all manufacturers and do not require that you build a BEV, and the incentives offered to Tesla to build the Gigafactory in Nevada are no different than other companies receive to open manufacturing, ie. FoxConn in WI.
It's not as though oil and gas aren't subsidized, and the price artificially manipulated.
Either way, Tesla has now surpassed 200k sales in the US, so they're going to completely lose the tax credit in 2019. And my Tesla has been a wonderful vehicle, so if this is the product of a con...then keep the con going.
Ty
Elio Addict
Tesla has yet to turn a profit and is supported by loans so "in a way" each Tesla sold has cost $12,435 in loans. (divide Tesla's debt by the number of cars produced). Of course, Elio's is WAY higher in a per-car basis... probably in the 10s of millions...
johnsnownw
Elio Addict
Automotive manufacturing is capital intensive, and generally low-margin. GM cost the american taxpayer more than Tesla has received in "loans."
Is there another automotive manufacturer, of the same scale, that began in the last 15 years that has less debt than Tesla? Mind you Tesla is an energy company, some of its debt can't be attributed to the "motors" portion of the company.
Tesla gets a lot of flack for little reason. I understand that they're a company that stands alone in their sector, but people need to understand that there is a reason we've whittled down automotive companies over the last 100 years.
Ty
Elio Addict
I was only putting Tesla in perspective. Of course they won't turn a true profit for a while because, as you said, automotive manufacturing is capital intensive. Elio has a head start in this realm because their factory is already built.
The Center for Automative Research said last year that the taxpayer bailout of GM saved 1.2 million jobs and avoided the loss of $129.2 billion in personal income in 2009 and 2010. Of the $78.2 billion the U.S. Treasury spent bailing out the auto industry through its Troubled Asset Relief Program, $58.0 billion was repaid, according to the report.
It looks like there is about $20B that wasn't repaid and I would consider this the cost to taxpayers. Though some would say that the $20B spent was worth saving 1.2 million jobs and all the associated losses from losing a major automotive manufacturer in the US. Plus, it gave Elio a head start with the Shreveport Assembly Plant. Now, to get Elio to actually start using it...
Anyway, back to the original point, Tesla vehicle sales have yet to turn the tide on cash flow though I hope it will soon. I mean, rooting against an American company, any American company whether it's Ford, GM, Chrysler, Apple, Weathertech, etc., is like rooting for the pilot of your plane to fail. I'd like to see Tesla become solvent and get to the business of building cars. It seems, at times, that there is quite a lack of focus there but still...
johnsnownw
Elio Addict
Tesla also purchased a factory that was already built. In fact, they basically got it for free (that is they got an incredibly good deal on it.)
I wasn't trying to get into a discussion as to whether bailing out GM was worth it, I agree that it was, simply putting into perspective how much money we're talking about here with regard to what Tesla has received.
Tesla is trying incredibly hard to become solvent, that's why they've rolled out the Model 3 by selling the higher profit models first, and restructured the company recently (laying off 10% of staff). As you agreed, automotive companies are incredibly capital intensive, doubly so for those that also have to also provide infrastructure for their vehicles (and all that goes along with incentivizing the switch to a completely different technology). People are too quick to discuss their cash burn and lack of solvency, when it is well known that they have to spend exorbitant amounts of money upfront.
Amazon didn't turn a profit for how long? Now Bezos is the richest man in the US. Tesla will either succeed or they won't, but it won't be from a lack of trying, and it won't be because they're products aren't fantastic.
Made in USA
Elio Addict
I really question the numbers in the paragraph: "The Center for Automative Research said last year that the taxpayer bailout of GM saved 1.2 million jobs and avoided the loss of $129.2 billion in personal income in 2009 and 2010. Of the $78.2 billion the U.S. Treasury spent bailing out the auto industry through its Troubled Asset Relief Program, $58.0 billion was repaid, according to the report."
You never hear about what may have really happened if GM was not bailed out. The above assumes that none of the other makers would pick up all the orders that GM has gotten since the bailout. If GM was allowed to fail, it's very likely that most of their factories would have been sold and put under another brand name. Most jobs would probably not been lost, at least not for very long. The re-birth of these factories may have been a great opportunity. The GM management got the company into trouble to begin with and all those workers may have been better off in the long run with different (better) management. If GM failed completely, the Elio may have already been in production. People still need cars from somebody. If GM's failure put the country into a recession, the Elio's price would look even better.
You never hear about what may have really happened if GM was not bailed out. The above assumes that none of the other makers would pick up all the orders that GM has gotten since the bailout. If GM was allowed to fail, it's very likely that most of their factories would have been sold and put under another brand name. Most jobs would probably not been lost, at least not for very long. The re-birth of these factories may have been a great opportunity. The GM management got the company into trouble to begin with and all those workers may have been better off in the long run with different (better) management. If GM failed completely, the Elio may have already been in production. People still need cars from somebody. If GM's failure put the country into a recession, the Elio's price would look even better.
Bookly
Elio Aficionado
That is... shall we say politely... "unique" logic.
Made in USA
Elio Addict
Problem with most major auto makers is that the labor and other overhead costs are so high that the cost to produce is also high. During a recession if sales drop off, and they do, either the makers have to lay people off, or reduce their profits to encourage sales. Probably both. In the end, I think a recession would help sell the Elio idea. Are we headed towards a recession? Maybe. No idea on when a recession might happen, but it's a definite possibility. There would be a great demand for 4-season, highway rated vehicle that cost around $10,000. It still might happen for Elio.
POST EDITED TO REMOVE POLITICAL COMMENTARY
POST EDITED TO REMOVE POLITICAL COMMENTARY
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