The Elio Engine

[goofyone]

Since the engine needs more horsepower. Perhaps they will drop the cam with the variable timing lobes into the engine and try to boost the power.

I thought that was the idea. since the test engine has a static cam not the variable system.

The conversation we are having in this thread demonstrates why EM does not like sharing this kind of in development data. In the past we have heard that this is not a fully complete final engine so it is likely that the engineering targets are also not the same final numbers that most people are looking to see. However if EM were to release the test result data the asterisk about being initial test results would be lost and instead everyone would simply focus on how low the numbers are.

People are already focusing on the engine being off by 5% and completely missing where Paul Elio says that this is within normal engineering range which is also the point of what I wrote in my previous post. IAV is within 5% of target on their very first shot which to me is actually pretty amazing as that is really close. This gives me plenty of confidence about IAV being able to meet the targets now that they have live test data to assist in tweaking the design.

 

[Ty]

The conversation we are having in this thread demonstrates why EM does not like sharing this kind of in development data. In the past we have heard that this is not a fully complete final engine so it is likely that the engineering targets are also not the same final numbers that most people are looking to see. However if EM were to release the test result data the asterisk about being initial test results would be lost and instead everyone would simply focus on how low the numbers are.

People are already focusing on the engine being off by 5% and completely missing where Paul Elio says that this is within normal engineering range which is also the point of what I wrote in my previous post. IAV is within 5% of target on their very first shot which to me is actually pretty amazing as that is really close. This gives me plenty of confidence about IAV being able to meet the targets now that they have live test data to assist in tweaking the design.

I have a point to make here but I'm not sure I'm even right. Here goes. They said "within 5% of target" and "within engineering specs" or something like that. Are they talking about being within what they thought the engine would be without the variable cam or are they within 5% of the 55hp target without even using the variable cam? The difference is huge.

People may not realize it but "within 5% of target" could mean that the engine right now produces 30 HP without the fancy cam and that is what engineers had predicted. Then, once they put the final cam in and retest it, they expect to be on the 55 HP target.

Those who are saying "within 5% is good enough. Produce the thing already" probably didn't remember that this engine doesn't have all it's parts yet. Producing the engine as is right now may produce very little usable power. Wait. Let IAV do what they are good at. When they reach certain milestones, they'll tell Elio and Elio MAY tell us. It isn't "lack of transparency". It's probably more like "lack of information from the company actually doing the work, IAV" or "Good practice to not release all information the second it is available".

 

[Smitty901]

5% can be as simple as fine tuning the MAP. Heck most good DYNO operators can take a factory tune and get a bit more out of it with out any real mods to the engine it's self. I would not be concerned with a -5% on HP. Now a major failure in torque would be an issue.

 

[jetpack54]

Have any of you entertained the idea that EM's decision to come up with their "own" new engine is their way, maybe the only way to BUY TIME when it started getting too obvious to us reservationists that funding is the real issue for the delays??? Call me the conspiracy theorist, but EM's claim that there is no engine manufacturer out there that can produce the volume they need or meet their required specs does not make sense. The ELIO's streamlined design alone will help any of the 3 cyl. engines out there available to meet or get close to engine goals they're shooting at. Have they TRIED testing and borrowing other 3 cyl. engines before deciding to make their own? NO! They've been claiming all along that the P4 is a running, capable prototype, I don't understand for the life of me why they never even tried to use that to test other 3 cy. engines??? Another theory that you guys may wanna consider is that - let's face it, there are engine manufacturers out there that can deliver the volumes that EM needs and can tweak it to EM's specs to meet their requirements rather than developing an engine from scratch by IAV, the problem is EM does not have the FUNDS buy theses engines and start the production! It's big news for EM to create a brand new engine from scratch and it's good for their image, or PE's ego??? Even established car manufacturers borrow their other engines from their other models and slap it in their newly introduced model. happens all the time- BUT YOU DON'T MAKE A NEW ENGINE if you are a start up company that have a tight budget and still searching for funding! Ok, bring on the heat! Remember to stick to my argument- if you attack me, well, you're asking for it!

 

[Ty]

Have any of you entertained the idea that EM's decision to come up with their "own" new engine is their way, maybe the only way to BUY TIME when it started getting too obvious to us reservationists that funding is the real issue for the delays??? Call me the conspiracy theorist, but EM's claim that there is no engine manufacturer out there that can produce the volume they need or meet their required specs does not make sense. The ELIO's streamlined design alone will help any of the 3 cyl. engines out there available to meet or get close to engine goals they're shooting at. Have they TRIED testing and borrowing other 3 cyl. engines before deciding to make their own? NO! They've been claiming all along that the P4 is a running, capable prototype, I don't understand for the life of me why they never even tried to use that to test other 3 cy. engines??? Another theory that you guys may wanna consider is that - let's face it, there are engine manufacturers out there that can deliver the volumes that EM needs and can tweak it to EM's specs to meet their requirements rather than developing an engine from scratch by IAV, the problem is EM does not have the FUNDS buy theses engines and start the production! It's big news for EM to create a brand new engine from scratch and it's good for their image, or PE's ego??? Even established car manufacturers borrow their other engines from their other models and slap it in their newly introduced model. happens all the time- BUT YOU DON'T MAKE A NEW ENGINE if you are a start up company that have a tight budget and still searching for funding! Ok, bring on the heat! Remember to stick to my argument- if you attack me, well, you're asking for it!

While there may be a manufacturer who could Eventually build enough engines, I don't really think there is one who is sitting on 250,000 per year capability. If they were, why aren't they making more right now? Sure - economics. I'm not sure if you've checked but "upgrading" to Ford's Ecoboost 1.0L Three cylinder raises the price from getting the Inline four cylinder by more than Elio should be able to make their motors for... quite a bit more, probably. While saving a couple hundred (or several!) per vehicle isn't a big deal when you make a handful, when you multiply $200 by 250,000, it becomes VERY substantial. And that's per year! I think the engine development has gone along as they are working on other issues anyway and probably hasn't slowed down Elio's production timeline. It HAS given Elio something to talk (brag) about though... Always good.

 

[WilliamH]

Have any of you entertained the idea that EM's decision to come up with their "own" new engine is their way, maybe the only way to BUY TIME when it started getting too obvious to us reservationists that funding is the real issue for the delays??? Call me the conspiracy theorist, but EM's claim that there is no engine manufacturer out there that can produce the volume they need or meet their required specs does not make sense. The ELIO's streamlined design alone will help any of the 3 cyl. engines out there available to meet or get close to engine goals they're shooting at. Have they TRIED testing and borrowing other 3 cyl. engines before deciding to make their own? NO! They've been claiming all along that the P4 is a running, capable prototype, I don't understand for the life of me why they never even tried to use that to test other 3 cy. engines??? Another theory that you guys may wanna consider is that - let's face it, there are engine manufacturers out there that can deliver the volumes that EM needs and can tweak it to EM's specs to meet their requirements rather than developing an engine from scratch by IAV, the problem is EM does not have the FUNDS buy theses engines and start the production! It's big news for EM to create a brand new engine from scratch and it's good for their image, or PE's ego??? Even established car manufacturers borrow their other engines from their other models and slap it in their newly introduced model. happens all the time- BUT YOU DON'T MAKE A NEW ENGINE if you are a start up company that have a tight budget and still searching for funding! Ok, bring on the heat! Remember to stick to my argument- if you attack me, well, you're asking for it!

............" Even established car manufacturers borrow their other engines from their other models and slap it in their newly introduced model."..........
Read your own words. They are using other engines that they developed in their other cars.
Apples to apples..............established car manufacturers to a start up car manufacturer.
Ford using their Ecoboost car engine in their truck.
Not Ford using Chevy's 327 in their Mustang.

 

[jetpack54]

............" Even established car manufacturers borrow their other engines from their other models and slap it in their newly introduced model."..........
Read your own words. They are using other engines that they developed in their other cars.
Apples to apples..............established car manufacturers to a start up car manufacturer.
Ford using their Ecoboost car engine in their truck.
Not Ford using Chevy's 327 in their Mustang.

See? I told you to increase your meds but you didn't listen did you? Re-read my post- I said BORROW, loan of buy if you wanna call it and again I said JUST FOR TESTING! You know they have the Geo engine currently installed in the P4 right? How'd they know if these current 3 cy. engines out there(not the old Geo motor-it's discontinued) will meet their criteria- well they won't because they want to go for BIGGER THINGS right away like making their OWN engine with hardly any budget! Am I making sense to you?

 

[jetpack54]

While there may be a manufacturer who could Eventually build enough engines, I don't really think there is one who is sitting on 250,000 per year capability. If they were, why aren't they making more right now? Sure - economics. I'm not sure if you've checked but "upgrading" to Ford's Ecoboost 1.0L Three cylinder raises the price from getting the Inline four cylinder by more than Elio should be able to make their motors for... quite a bit more, probably. While saving a couple hundred (or several!) per vehicle isn't a big deal when you make a handful, when you multiply $200 by 250,000, it becomes VERY substantial. And that's per year! I think the engine development has gone along as they are working on other issues anyway and probably hasn't slowed down Elio's production timeline. It HAS given Elio something to talk (brag) about though... Always good.

Well Ty I don't think even IAV who made the engine can really supply that much volume in a year because you have to realize that they are also supplying engines on other car manufacturers from what I read here. I understand fully that volume is key to EM making at least decent money from this project considering the price point that they are trying to sell it per unit but starting TOO BIG TOO EARLY for a start up that have not manufactured a single car/trike is an enormous task and no fund to keep the ball rolling! Don't get me wrong, there's no backing out for me because they've got my deposit so I'm still hopeful that the fund they're seeking is approved and wishing it's enough to start and sustain the long awaited production of our beloved ELIO.

 

[Smitty901]

IAV is not building the engines they design them once that is all done someone else builds them. If there is a market for 250,000 of them a year bet your tail someone will find away to supply them. Maybe not the first year but they will be up and running by start of year two.
Also if PE could show he could sell 250,000 of them in a year funding would NOT be an issue.
Investors would be begging PE to take their money

 

[WilliamH]

See? I told you to increase your meds but you didn't listen did you? Re-read my post- I said BORROW, loan of buy if you wanna call it and again I said JUST FOR TESTING! You know they have the Geo engine currently installed in the P4 right? How'd they know if these current 3 cy. engines out there(not the old Geo motor-it's discontinued) will meet their criteria- well they won't because they want to go for BIGGER THINGS right away like making their OWN engine with hardly any budget! Am I making sense to you?

Some misguided person like you recently proposed three different engines that had about 55 HP and 55 Ft Lbs of torque. All relatively recent engines.
I checked them and found that they had all been discontinued.
You are also missing the point that the Elio falls under a category that will require 75 MPG to meet ATVM requirements.
And while your time and resources are apparently either unlimited or of no value, it costs both time and money to test each combination.
And since the 75 MPG is critical you would have to be a fool to put that type of requirement stability in someone elses control.

As far as my "meds", thank you for your concern. My cardiologists and my electro cardiologist both feel they are just fine, and based on the latest test, my pacemaker should last another 5 or 6 years.