The Elio Automatic Transmission

[floydv]

Right on, brother. I refer to it as a "motorcycle with roof."

I think of the Elio as a "motorcycle sans helmet (MoSH)."

 

[Maurtis]

Perhaps EM is trying to decide if they should stick with the $600 AMT they originally planned, or switch to one of various traditional feel transmissions which cost $1000, $1200, or $1500 more. Hence the survey. (Perhaps the CVT is one of these choices. CVTs are used in US cars. The AMT is not.)

Assuming the original plan was to use the Aisin BC5 manual transmission and the MC5 as the AMT option, this post by Goofyone states the price Toyota was charging in the UK: £500 GBP option which would be about $775 USD. The Elio Automatic Transmission

So I wonder if you are right about the levels not being to maximize profit but to allow different equipment. Say $1,000 for the Aisin single clutch AMT, $1,200 for a traditional torque converter, and $1,500 for a CVT?

BTW, AFAIK the Smart Fortwo never went to a traditional automatic. They stuck with the roboshifting single clutch AMT until the new 2016 which went to either a real manual or a dual clutch automatic. They supposedly changed the shifting logic after 2008 which made the shifts a little better, but I have only driven 2008s that had not been flashed so no idea how much it helped.

 

[Ekh]

Assuming the original plan was to use the Aisin BC5 manual transmission and the MC5 as the AMT option, this post by Goofyone states the price Toyota was charging in the UK: £500 GBP option which would be about $775 USD. The Elio Automatic Transmission

So I wonder if you are right about the levels not being to maximize profit but to allow different equipment. Say $1,000 for the Aisin single clutch AMT, $1,200 for a traditional torque converter, and $1,500 for a CVT?

BTW, AFAIK the Smart Fortwo never went to a traditional automatic. They stuck with the roboshifting single clutch AMT until the new 2016 which went to either a real manual or a dual clutch automatic. They supposedly changed the shifting logic after 2008 which made the shifts a little better, but I have only driven 2008s that had not been flashed so no idea how much it helped.

If there's one thing on earth I hate, it's the people who do not know how to create or measure survey results. We've already seen the problem in posts right here: people are interpreting what they think the survey means, and that renders the data the useless. Also sending out varying forms of the same survey guarantees muddy results. Somebody may have had a bright idea to test the waters on pricing of automatic transmissions, but instead of hiring really professional Market researchers to ask these questions, they've done this amateur hodgepodge. I hope it doesn't wind up biting them in the butt.

 

[floydv]

BTW, AFAIK the Smart Fortwo never went to a traditional automatic. They stuck with the roboshifting single clutch AMT until the new 2016 which went to either a real manual or a dual clutch automatic. They supposedly changed the shifting logic after 2008 which made the shifts a little better, but I have only driven 2008s that had not been flashed so no idea how much it helped.

I had a 2008 smart cabrio that I flashed to upgrade the transmission codec as soon as that was available. It made a difference. However, I have to say the brouhaha over the smart's tranny was, in my opinion, much ado about nuttin'. Most folks who complained about it were conventional automag journalists who frankly tended to be biased against microcars to begin with, or they were folks who had no idea what an automated manual transmission was.

As the name implies, it is a manual transmission that happens to be shifted by the car instead of the driver. This means it shifts like a manual transmission and feels just like someone pressing on the clutch, a slight delay occurring as the gear selector is moved to the next gear, and then gear re-engagement and acceleration.

Many detractors complained about the transmission because they were expecting an experience based on a conventional automatic transmission with a torque converter, which the AMT was never designed to emulate.

 

[Maurtis]

I went into my test drives actually liking the Smart and small cars. I am sure over time I would have grown to ignore the way the tranny shifted, especially if the flash made it better. But... for me part of the issue was not knowing that you had to let off the gas between shifts to keep it from being jerky. Since I was used to regular automatics where you just stayed on the gas, the Smart shifts were really jerky. I bet that would have helped out a lot and something that Elio AMT owners might have to keep in mind as well.

 

[floydv]

I went into my test drives actually liking the Smart and small cars. I am sure over time I would have grown to ignore the way the tranny shifted, especially if the flash made it better. But... for me part of the issue was not knowing that you had to let off the gas between shifts to keep it from being jerky. Since I was used to regular automatics where you just stayed on the gas, the Smart shifts were really jerky. I bet that would have helped out a lot and something that Elio AMT owners might have to keep in mind as well.

Yes, like I said, it's just like a manual transmission. With the smart's AMT, you end up letting the rpms drop just slightly as the gears shift to smoothen out the shifting. Same thing happens with a manual transmission in the couple seconds it takes to depress the clutch, shift gears, and release the clutch: the rpms drop slightly before rising again as you press on the accelerator.

 

[WilliamH]

I think there are several issues here......

1. It was not made clear that no matter what the results of the survey, the transmission in the 'basic 'model' would be a manual transmission.
2. Some people thought it was an opportunity to whine that it wasn't a CVT or a torque converter based transmission.
3. When people compared notes it gave the impression that if you said you would pay $xxxx amount they had their price point for an automatic.
4. It came so close to the configurator release that many felt this would be used to set the option price point on the automatic transmission to "all the traffic would bear".

This is what happens when computer nerds don't consider the human aspects of their surveys.

P.S. This is also why every time someone says I would be willing to pay $10K for this, I want to throttle them until they turn blue. Don't feed the greed!

 

[floydv]

I think there are several issues here......

1. It was not made clear that no matter what the results of the survey, the transmission in the 'basic 'model' would be a manual transmission.
2. Some people thought it was an opportunity to whine that it wasn't a CVT or a torque converter based transmission.
3. When people compared notes it gave the impression that if you said you would pay $xxxx amount they had their price point for an automatic.
4. It came so close to the configurator release that many felt this would be used to set the option price point on the automatic transmission to "all the traffic would bear".

This is what happens when computer nerds don't consider the human aspects of their surveys.

P.S. This is also why every time someone says I would be willing to pay $10K for this, I want to throttle them until they turn blue. Don't feed the greed!

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

Very few cars now sell with standard shifts. This 2014 story is relevant.
Manual transmissions getting rarer in the US

Shift it yourself: Manual transmissions regaining popularity

Don't rely on articles. They say both.

If they go to automatic only, I will walk away.

Same here. But I don't think that'll be a problem.

You guys need to settle down. It's just a survey.

Put down the torches and pitch forks and wait a week.

Jeeze......


(I'm waiting on the survey for diesels.... and color <except yellow>)

 

[Ekh]

I'm not anti-automatic transmission. I like a stick -- but unless they fix it, the Elio clutch is too stiff for me to drive in heavy traffic or mountains for the next 10 years -- muscle mass deteriorating as I age. So I want an automatic, but not $1400 worth.

that's the personal side of this commentary.

On the more objective side, I am concerned that
1. Most of Elio's proposed market (which ain't us addicts) does not know how to use a stick shift (80% of people under 50, I'm sorry to say).
2. Much of Elio's proposed market (the "clunker market" is unable to afford $10,000 for a car. An automatic -- which they need -- may well put the car out of reach.
3. Overcharging for something this vital to the Elio markets and prior statements about caring for the little guys sits very wrong.

Just ask yourselves regarding charging $1400 for a $600-700 item, "What would Bernie say?" -- and Gentle Moderator, before you get your knickers in a twist, that is not a political statement. I'm using Bernie only as an easily recognized symbol of the roiling discontent out there about exploitation of the lower and middle classes by the megabusinesses. He's voicing for the Left what Trump is voicing for the Right. The disgust and contempt and outrage are real, no matter which political side you are on. The level of discontent is a sociological fact more than a political one.

That said, For Elio to act in the face of its professed values and against the popular mood of the day, would be a very very large mistake.

They're entitled to make a profit, but they should not exceed 15-20% over cost on this vital element of the car's success.