Starter/generator?

[Anderson Howard]

You can push start an alternator based vehicle with a manual transmission quite easily. I've done it more than a few times. Doing that does NOT require a generator.

Lets skip the alternator/generator and go right to the hand crank and magneto.

 

[JWSET]

Lets skip the alternator/generator and go right to the hand crank and magneto.

Or better yet just get a squirrel cage and nuts keep them fed and happy they turn the cage. ROFL.

 

[Coss]

Lets skip the alternator/generator and go right to the hand crank and magneto.

It's 3 cylinder, high compression; make it a kick start.

I understand that it would not be simple. I understand that they changed from generators to alternators for reasons. I understand that there are other issues as you have laid out. However,....
I also understand that the entire industry changes at times due to conditions at those times. When they switched to alternators, there were pros and cons. Now, Elio is a ground up effort with some fairly radical changes. If the starter motor requirements are less because of the new engine, then starting from the belt might be feasible. That could simplify the housing around the flywheel. By removing the NEED to have the starter there, other changes might be available for examination. Conversely, perhaps it would work better to have the starter/generator be gear driven and skip the extra item hanging off of the belt(s).
While true that they want to use off-the-shelf parts, they are already redesigning the engine. Apparently, they decided that was a good call.
Also, one example of when a generator is better than an alternator is when your battery goes. It is my understanding that the alternator needs voltage in order to generate electricity. In a generator-based car, aside from a total short where the battery was, you can push-start and continue to run.
Lastly, as with all of my suggestions here, I am only offering more ideas that help break out of "the box". I have long ago found that I am good at that and that most of the ideas are still dwarfed by whatever built the box in the first place. However, sometimes just having re-examined such options help more fully understand exactly why the box boundary is where it is....

I can't fault you for "thinking outside the box" but Elio Motors has always been fighting to work within a strict budget.
And with a new concept like the Starter/Generator the R&D costs would be something that they don't have a budget for.

I would present the idea to a vendor that already has the ability the budget and the facilities to develop an idea like this.
Once they have all of the bugs worked out (and I'm sure there would be a number of them) they could present the product to EM.

EM is more of an Assembler/Designer than a true developer; they let the vendors do the development and presentation; then put their products into the vehicle.

So don't stop "thinking outside the box" but include the right supplier to do the R&D.

 

[FC]

Smaller version of the motor and control system used in electric or hybrid vehicles might work. Don't think the extra complexity of the control system would be worth it, unless it was a part of a future Elio hybrid model.

 

[BiloxiGeek]

However, it does require a functioning battery. In the generator case, the battery is not required for push-starting. If the battery is malfunctioning in the way of being a direct short (shorting the whole system out) then you would not be able to push-start it with a generator either.... until you disconnected the battery.

Push starting an alternator based system does not require a functioning battery.

I've push started a car with no battery and with a dead battery. There's really no difference there. Neither a generator or alternator system will push start, jump start or normal start if there's a short in the system. So on that feature there's really no difference.

 

[XanWolf]

Then I must be mis-informed. I was led to believe that the alternator needs exciter voltage in order to generate electricity. It makes sense that it would be that way. However, if you say that you have managed to push-start an alternator-based car without a battery, then I am not sure how that could be true.

 

[BilgeRat]

Alternators both large and small can get the generating process started with the residual magnetism present in the rotor when it starts to spin. On a couple of occasions, we have had to do a procedure called "flashing the field" with AC generators (alternators) driven by truck sized diesel engines that had lost that residual magnetism, it involves very briefly connecting a 12 volt battery to the field connections.

One thing an alternator can't take is losing it's load (the battery) while running. I had this happen to one of our generators with a Deere 8.1 liter diesel. After the excitement had died down after the repairs were complete, we determined that the battery had had an internal cell connector open while the engine was running. The battery opening up caused the alternator to create a voltage spike that wiped out the diodes, the diode trio and the regulator inside the alternator. In addition, the spike wiped out the ECU of this electronically controlled diesel as well, so this turned into one very expensive repair.

 

[electroken]

Then I must be mis-informed. I was led to believe that the alternator here are exceptionsneeds exciter voltage in order to generate electricity. It makes sense that it would be that way. However, if you say that you have managed to push-start an alternator-based car without a battery, then I am not sure how that could be true.

You are not misinformed (mostly).

Almost any automotive alternator made in the last 40 years needs rotor current in order to create any useful output. For those, a battery with at least some charge is required. There are exceptions. I've seen a couple alternators with enough residual magnetism on the pole pieces to spontaneously begin charging with no rotor current. These are few and far between (and usually old).

Another exception is a permanent magnet alternator, commonly found on motorcycles. As long as they're spinning they can create a useful output. That design is usually limited to lower current outputs. For example, the alternator on my KLR650 tops out at 17 amperes.

I have not seen anything with a an engine computer push-started with a dead battery. The ignition system simply won't function.

Public service announcement:
Never disconnect the battery while the engine is running. This creates a condition called a "load dump", which is a half-second long 70-80 volt pulse (in a 12V system) that will raise hell with the systems electronics.

 

[Mel]

Public service announcement:
Never disconnect the battery while the engine is running. This creates a condition called a "load dump", which is a half-second long 70-80 volt pulse (in a 12V system) that will raise hell with the systems electronics.

I had a customer who's alternator "ran away" on his airplane. Not caused by disconnecting the battery, but the result is the same.
Wiped out avionics, instruments and all lights. A very expensive repair.

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

Although not universal, a generator does not make proper voltage until the higher RPM's have been reached. This is why aircraft use them on turbine engines. Generators are more suitable for the "Starter/Generator" combo what are known for weight savings on aircraft. Even so, generators are rarely seen on piston aircraft engines.

I had a customer who's alternator "ran away" on his airplane. Not caused by disconnecting the battery, but the result is the same.
Wiped out avionics, instruments and all lights. A very expensive repair.

I'm a little suspect that a over-voltage/over-current circuit failed so spectacularly. Usually, it should cut out at 18v (or 29v depending on the system). Even the pre-solid state equipment (like carbon pile) was pretty reliable.