Penultimate Thought On The Atvm Loan People And Their Decision Making.

[Watashiwah]

“Paul along with his ESG partners win no matter what. People want car ownership, Yoyo fails if we want it, then Elio Motors wins. It's better than Elon Musk telling what we want. We now have a choice.”
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Paul further demonstrating that ‘there’s more than just one way to "take us for a ride"'

 

[Watashiwah]

I wholeheartedly agree: it is my contention and opinion that it is likely that Hari ‘drove’ the entire Elio Motors debacle. I believe that Hari, after numerous attempts in securing an ATVM loan for other ‘projects’ realized that he didn’t need that, or other, financing to get investors and sell dubious ‘spots in (non existent) ‘lines.’ It is my opinion that Hari was the initial and ‘principal’ driver of an artful ‘dangling of the ATVM carrot.’ He, Paul, and the others were very crafty and creative with balancing barely plausible ‘Forward Looking Statements,’ with blog releases speaking of the dependence or non dependence of any type of funding for whatever scenario behooved them. I believe that maybe Paul, in the very very early days may have gone into this venture with good intentions but quickly learned that their financial ‘success’ did not have to include development of the vehicle. There are just too many bad decisions, stories of lackadaisical engineering and follow through, marketing blunders and ‘missteps,’ bad engineering, and incompetent ‘performance.’ It is obvious, to me, that their eventual ‘business plan’ did not include a vehicle.

 

[Rickb]

Arcimoto recently submitted an application for an ATVM loan and have the ‘required’ proof of concept in an actual retail production vehicle. It will be interesting to follow that application process in a DoE program that hasn’t approved an ATVM loan application in years. Note: Many Elio Owner Forum members recognized early on that the business plan was focused on marketing and fundraising, not R&D.......EM....Elio Marketing. It’s been a fun, interesting, and disappointing road with many twists, turns, & roadblocks over the years.

 

[Watashiwah]

Why Elio Motors was never a viable contender for the ATVM loan:

Setting aside for a moment that EM never got close to securing enough money to satisfy the most important requirement (alone this is a ‘show stopper’), a smaller gasoline powered internal combustion engine that pulled a smaller, half sized vehicle is/was no Advanced Technology Vehicle: sure there were some mealy words the DOE put out that appeared to allow for mere improvements but you have to remember that even this government enterprise still needs applicants to show they are processing something. Can you imagine the fallout from the taxpaying public if EM did default on a federal loan for just a smaller car, that still has no utility value nor even offers a smaller traffic and/or parking footprint?

In hindsight, Hari and Paul had to pursue that new engine that they were hoping we’d think would eclipse all the other similarly small engines: they knew, and we tacitly knew, that was essentially more money that they could churn between EM, ESG Engineering, and at least one vendor. That nebulous engine was but a small part of the engineering ‘services’ ‘churn.’ Pursuing that impossibly efficient engine and drivetrain was a gamble to buy more time for reservations and maybe address that ATVM ‘gray area.’ Within that ‘gray area,’ Hari and Paul concocted a extremely self serving and lucrative push to get to a random 65,000 reservationists threshold ostensibly to ‘impress’ the ATVM. We know that it’s unlikely that would persuade the DOE to stamp ‘Approved’ on the loan, but to any thinking future investor it should have sent up a flare. If I were on the DoE committee, I think I’d be insulted: the reservation ‘push’ illustrates that Hari and Paul likely knew early on that their vehicle had no technological and engineering merit to qualify.

Hari and Paul were particularly crafty with their ‘demos.’ Often, if not always, they were unannounced, I remember one person even lamenting ‘no handouts or flyers,’ the always obsolete ‘prototype’ was often dusty, dirty, or improperly assembled. Could one reason be that these ‘demos’ never got any publicity is because any automotive publication able to plan attending would immediately seize on the fact that there is, and never was, any designated dedicated power plant? Those demos were for ‘after the fact’ blog entries for future reservationists that didn’t do their homework and followed unrealistically positive websites: Hari and Paul effectively dodged professional and industry scrutiny.

Hari and Paul more than likely knew, just as many of us slowly realized, that we were going to be taken on a ride, and that ride wasn’t going to be in an Elio three wheeler.

 

[RSchneider]

Arcimoto recently submitted an application for an ATVM loan and have the ‘required’ proof of concept in an actual retail production vehicle.

From what Mark said in the August 2018 quarterly report, they just submitted that ATVM loan for $100M which will be for expanded west coast and new east coast manufacturing. They are two years into that application. What's the latest update on that? I found Mark talking about it here at the 3:36 point on their Q2 Earnings Webcast:

 

[Rickb]

From what Mark said in the August 2018 quarterly report, they just submitted that ATVM loan for $100M which will be for expanded west coast and new east coast manufacturing. They are two years into that application. What's the latest update on that? I found Mark talking about it here at the 3:36 point on their Q2 Earnings Webcast:

Don’t know. I doubt it’s moved or if the application has been opened, but at least Arcimoto had the required proof of concept prototype in the Signature Series and Beta testing phase at the time of the initial application that has since become the FMVSS certified FUV retail production model. The bipartisan ATVM loan program was funded for Innovative startup companies exactly like Arcimoto.

 

[RSchneider]

Don’t know. I doubt it’s moved or if the application has been opened, but at least Arcimoto had the required proof of concept prototype in the Signature Series and Beta testing phase at the time of the initial application that has since become the FMVSS certified FUV retail production model. The bipartisan ATVM loan program was funded for Innovative startup companies exactly like Arcimoto.

Since they meet all of the criteria, then we can claim they got the $100M. With that, where are they building the East Coast plant? I suggest SC or maybe eastern TN since there's plenty of suppliers there. BMW and VW has massive plants there and it brought in lots of suppliers in the general geographical area. With VW expanding the plant yet again to make EV's, this would be the perfect area for the Arcimoto plant. I expect in August for the quarterly report Mark will announce the location of the plant.

On a side note, when are you getting yours? It's the perfect time of year to be FUVing around.

 

[Rickb]

Since they meet all of the criteria, then we can claim they got the $100M. With that, where are they building the East Coast plant? I suggest SC or maybe eastern TN since there's plenty of suppliers there. BMW and VW has massive plants there and it brought in lots of suppliers in the general geographical area. With VW expanding the plant yet again to make EV's, this would be the perfect area for the Arcimoto plant. I expect in August for the quarterly report Mark will announce the location of the plant.

On a side note, when are you getting yours? It's the perfect time of year to be FUVing around.

I have no idea if Arcimoto meets all the criteria, only that there is a fully Spec’d and tested FMVSS certified production FUV available for the ATVM Committee to test drive in helping to determine if they do along with a business plan with how to use the loan if/when approved. I doubt there is anyone in the DoE interested or charged with opening and processing ATVM Loan applications.

My delivery is pending doors. The AMP doors to reopen after the COVID shutdown and the reveal/availability of hard doors that are a requirement in taking delivery of my FUV. My interest was and continues to be in ‘enclosed’ three wheelers.

 

[RSchneider]

I have no idea if Arcimoto meets all the criteria, only that there is a fully Spec’d and tested FMVSS certified production FUV available for the ATVM Committee to test drive in helping to determine if they do along with a business plan with how to use the loan if/when approved. I doubt there is anyone in the DoE interested or charged with opening and processing ATVM Loan applications.

My delivery is pending doors. The AMP doors to reopen after the COVID shutdown and the reveal/availability of hard doors that are a requirement in taking delivery of my FUV. My interest was and continues to be in ‘enclosed’ three wheelers.

So we are two years into the FUV application and no info at all. It wounds like that the most perfect example for the ATVM loan is struggling and maybe that loan program is a waste of time for Mark to even mention because at least a hundred of other perfect examples never got it to. Why would Mark waste his time on a ruined loan program? Maybe he needs to address this in August. Sounds like to me that he was using it as a carrot to keep investors interested even though he knew it was a dead end. I really hope I'm wrong about this.

As for your FUV, when will you get it? Please do not be like Paul and tell me "Soon". Give a date. You were to be getting it in 2019 but that all of a sudden ended. You are such a big supporter yet you do not have one when they are cranking them off the assembly line. I'd think by now they are upwards of 1K orders received because they have been cranking them out since late 2019. Covid 19 is not the excuse I want to hear as many other companies are up and running. I ordered a fully loaded BMW X3 M40i and just picked it up at the BMW factory. I watched it come off the assembly line in Spartanburg then did the BMW driving experience right there. If they are up and running, then so is FUV.

What I do find is many companies are using Covid as an excuse for a blanket excuse and as we all know FUV would never do that. Especially when this is the time of year to sell them since they have no doors and strictly for summer use.

So, give us a date as we want updates on it and especially the service and durability. That way we can make a countdown for something that will happen as opposed to dream.

 

[Rickb]

I’ll let you know.