Momentum V115

[pistonboy]

Excellent points.
But. If Elio had "original equipment specifications", for an Elio Turbo, I do not think I would need a "BAR" label, as long as it did not "degrade the effectiveness of a vehicle's emission control system."
CA is probably the most stringent of all.
https://www.bar.ca.gov/Industry/Engine_Change_Guidelines.html

The "original equipment specifications" for early Elios will not have turbos as options. California may balk at approving such retrofit kits. California has tried to get old muscle cars off the road and succeeded for a while.
I have lived here 32 years.

I live in California. I know California. I do not trust California.

 

[Sailor Dog]

From Elio Motors FB page IM..."Things are moving forward Jeff, the news sells with drama, not good news." This is a public page. I finally see 3 lights at the end of the tunnel...Got my Elio Credit Card out!!!

 

[booboo]

Legal Sméagol

 

[KenK]

"Things are moving forward Jeff..."

Well... duh? Things tend to do that. Whether it is forward into glory or oblivion... that is the question.

"the news sells with drama, not good news."

I don't see those things as being mutually exclusive. Good news NOW about Elio would certainly sell. This is just more nothingness from Elio thanks to the SEC.

 

[Sailor Dog]

Good news would sell reservations and shares...not troll reads... thanks to the SEC we shall wait a little longer for it.

 

[airforceguy6]

May 31, 2017 Koons Easton Toyota made me an offer on a 2017 Prius I could not refuse(including taking my 14 year old Honda Accord)What is my fuel mileage on this 5 person Toyota Prius hybrid?
Very nice, I almost put in a full tank of fuel today. Tank is 11 gallons. This time I drove 668.3 miles on 10.3 gallons, giving an average of 69.8 mpg! Thank you Koons Easton Toyota, thank you TY(sales) and J. T. Thompson Sr. (GM). I drive with the A.C on while getting 69.8 mpg. This testimony is not paid, free real world results from me, Terrence Bernard today, July 20, 2017. I am so happy with this 2017 Toyota Prius!
At fueling up today the trip odometer which shows the 668.3 miles traveled at this fuel fill up of 10.3 gallons. Also shows the 69.8 mpg for this fill up. Gas tank empty holds 11 gallons. With 7/10th of a gallon remaining, I could have driven 700 miles!

Great post that has NOTHING to do with this topic....

 

[W. WIllie]

BUT AT WHAT SPEEDS?

 

[Rob Croson]

But again, what advantage is this particular law going to give Elio Motors?
And exactly how is it supposed to benefit the general public for that matter.

And it seems no-one comes up with a real answer.

WHAT'S THE POINT?

The idea behind the autocycle regulation, so far as I have come to understand it, is to provide a nationwide level playing field for autocycle sales and ownership. With the autocycle definition specified at a federal level, each individual state will be able to simply point to the federal definition as to what an autocycle is, and what it requires in order to be called one. This means that EM won't have to try to research and comply with 50 separate state laws in order to sell their vehicle. Ohio requires an enclosed cab, Texas requires a steering wheel, Indiana requires side-by-side seating, Oregon needs a center-mount headlight, etc., etc. (And yes, I made those up as fictional examples, merely to illustrate a point.) The point of the national standard is to define one single law that can be followed, and EM can say "We comply with the federal standard, and that's enough to satisfy everyone."

This greatly easy the regulatory compliance burden on EM. It broadens their market to encompass the entire country. It removes the need for their customers to have to go out and get motorcycle endorsements. It means that you don't have to wear a helmet inside your autocycle. It means you don't have to do research before crossing the state line. (As it stands, if I had an autocycle I could drive it in Ohio, but not in West Virginia.) The net effect of all of this is a markedly larger customer base, and correspondingly larger sales. None of these individual situations may have affected you. Well, good for you. But the entirety of the US is most definitely NOT in your situation.

This is a business/marketing decision. It's not altruism. They were changing to laws in order to attract more customer, and be able to sell those customers. Arcimoto's SRK will never be more than a niche vehicle that sells a couple hundred a year, tops. Why? Because it's a motorcycle in almost every state, requiring a motorcycle endorsement thanks to it's handle bars and non-enclosed cab. (Barring a thousand dollar upgrade that adds some funky plastic doors.) And it's starting price for 70 mile range is $12k!

The benefit to the general public is that it provides a way for people to look for a specific rating/compliance and know that they are getting something that meets those standards. You don't have to run down the list of features, and hope that the manufacturer is really doing it, or that they are doing it in a safe manner. You can look for the "Federal Autocycle Approved" sticker or whatever the designation is, and know that it has all the federally approved equipment, and meets the federal approved standards. It means that this is not some fly-by-night design that's merely trying to take advantage of the three-wheeled loophole to make a quick buck with some piece of shit deathtrap.

It is also an attempt to regulate the three-wheeled market so that maybe some of the three-wheeled-deathtraps never make it onto the streets. Because when the market is young, a bad public impression of three wheelers could have a very bad effect on sales of all three wheeled vehicles.

So EM made the decision to push the federal autocycle law. So it specifies a steering wheel, rather than handle bars. I understand that a few state laws already said this. Fully enclosed? Some states required this, too. So EM could do one of two things: They could sponsor a bill that had tighter regulations and have a better chance of it passing, or they could sponsor a bill that had much looser regulations, and risk it not being acceptable. If it was your business and money on the line, which way would you go?

So, yeah, maybe they are pushing a law that excludes the SRK. Or the Sondors. Maybe by design, maybe not. (Keep in mind that the Sondors concept didn't exist when EM started pushing the federal autocycle regulation. Did Arcimoto? I really don't know.) The question I have is: Did Arcimoto or Sondors put up any money to get the laws changed? Did they approach EM and start a dialog about getting the bill changed so that their vehicle could meet the regulations? Did they think about modifying their vehicle to meet the regulation?

 

[floydv]

The idea behind the autocycle regulation, so far as I have come to understand it, is to provide a nationwide level playing field for autocycle sales and ownership. With the autocycle definition specified at a federal level, each individual state will be able to simply point to the federal definition as to what an autocycle is, and what it requires in order to be called one. This means that EM won't have to try to research and comply with 50 separate state laws in order to sell their vehicle. Ohio requires an enclosed cab, Texas requires a steering wheel, Indiana requires side-by-side seating, Oregon needs a center-mount headlight, etc., etc. (And yes, I made those up as fictional examples, merely to illustrate a point.) The point of the national standard is to define one single law that can be followed, and EM can say "We comply with the federal standard, and that's enough to satisfy everyone."

This greatly easy the regulatory compliance burden on EM. It broadens their market to encompass the entire country. It removes the need for their customers to have to go out and get motorcycle endorsements. It means that you don't have to wear a helmet inside your autocycle. It means you don't have to do research before crossing the state line. (As it stands, if I had an autocycle I could drive it in Ohio, but not in West Virginia.) The net effect of all of this is a markedly larger customer base, and correspondingly larger sales. None of these individual situations may have affected you. Well, good for you. But the entirety of the US is most definitely NOT in your situation.

This is a business/marketing decision. It's not altruism. They were changing to laws in order to attract more customer, and be able to sell those customers. Arcimoto's SRK will never be more than a niche vehicle that sells a couple hundred a year, tops. Why? Because it's a motorcycle in almost every state, requiring a motorcycle endorsement thanks to it's handle bars and non-enclosed cab. (Barring a thousand dollar upgrade that adds some funky plastic doors.) And it's starting price for 70 mile range is $12k!

The benefit to the general public is that it provides a way for people to look for a specific rating/compliance and know that they are getting something that meets those standards. You don't have to run down the list of features, and hope that the manufacturer is really doing it, or that they are doing it in a safe manner. You can look for the "Federal Autocycle Approved" sticker or whatever the designation is, and know that it has all the federally approved equipment, and meets the federal approved standards. It means that this is not some fly-by-night design that's merely trying to take advantage of the three-wheeled loophole to make a quick buck with some piece of shit deathtrap.

It is also an attempt to regulate the three-wheeled market so that maybe some of the three-wheeled-deathtraps never make it onto the streets. Because when the market is young, a bad public impression of three wheelers could have a very bad effect on sales of all three wheeled vehicles.

So EM made the decision to push the federal autocycle law. So it specifies a steering wheel, rather than handle bars. I understand that a few state laws already said this. Fully enclosed? Some states required this, too. So EM could do one of two things: They could sponsor a bill that had tighter regulations and have a better chance of it passing, or they could sponsor a bill that had much looser regulations, and risk it not being acceptable. If it was your business and money on the line, which way would you go?

So, yeah, maybe they are pushing a law that excludes the SRK. Or the Sondors. Maybe by design, maybe not. (Keep in mind that the Sondors concept didn't exist when EM started pushing the federal autocycle regulation. Did Arcimoto? I really don't know.) The question I have is: Did Arcimoto or Sondors put up any money to get the laws changed? Did they approach EM and start a dialog about getting the bill changed so that their vehicle could meet the regulations? Did they think about modifying their vehicle to meet the regulation?

Very nicely put. I agree with all that. I would also add the following based on prior Elio statements. I think Elio Motors is wisely laying the groundwork for eventually getting autocycles qualified for CAFE credits. The autocycle definition and requirements bridge the gap between motorcycles and automobiles; by essentially calling an autocycle an automobile without subjecting it to all the crash testing an automobile would need to meet, Elio Motors is establishing a credible argument for the autocycle being a true replacement for an automobile and therefore should qualify as a CAFE credit generator.

I believe this is a big part of EM's plans for generating additional income, and it indicates they have put a lot of thought into this (I'm looking at the scam-mongers). Of course, all this effort could be derailed if the Feds eliminate both the ATVM loan and CAFE program. Perhaps we should all be contacting our representatives and let them know whether we support both programs.

 

[Elio Amazed]

The idea behind the autocycle regulation, so far as I have come to understand it, is to provide a nationwide level playing field for autocycle sales and ownership. With the autocycle definition specified at a federal level, each individual state will be able to simply point to the federal definition as to what an autocycle is, and what it requires in order to be called one. This means that EM won't have to try to research and comply with 50 separate state laws in order to sell their vehicle. Ohio requires an enclosed cab, Texas requires a steering wheel, Indiana requires side-by-side seating, Oregon needs a center-mount headlight, etc., etc. (And yes, I made those up as fictional examples, merely to illustrate a point.) The point of the national standard is to define one single law that can be followed, and EM can say "We comply with the federal standard, and that's enough to satisfy everyone."

This greatly easy the regulatory compliance burden on EM. It broadens their market to encompass the entire country. It removes the need for their customers to have to go out and get motorcycle endorsements. It means that you don't have to wear a helmet inside your autocycle. It means you don't have to do research before crossing the state line. (As it stands, if I had an autocycle I could drive it in Ohio, but not in West Virginia.)The net effect of all of this is a markedly larger customer base, and correspondingly larger sales. None of these individual situations may have affected you. Well, good for you. But the entirety of the US is most definitely NOT in your situation.

This is a business/marketing decision. It's not altruism. They were changing to laws in order to attract more customer, and be able to sell those customers. Arcimoto's SRK will never be more than a niche vehicle that sells a couple hundred a year, tops. Why? Because it's a motorcycle in almost every state, requiring a motorcycle endorsement thanks to it's handle bars and non-enclosed cab. (Barring a thousand dollar upgrade that adds some funky plastic doors.) And it's starting price for 70 mile range is $12k!

The benefit to the general public is that it provides a way for people to look for a specific rating/compliance and know that they are getting something that meets those standards. You don't have to run down the list of features, and hope that the manufacturer is really doing it, or that they are doing it in a safe manner. You can look for the "Federal Autocycle Approved" sticker or whatever the designation is, and know that it has all the federally approved equipment, and meets the federal approved standards. It means that this is not some fly-by-night design that's merely trying to take advantage of the three-wheeled loophole to make a quick buck with some piece of shit deathtrap.

It is also an attempt to regulate the three-wheeled market so that maybe some of the three-wheeled-deathtraps never make it onto the streets. Because when the market is young, a bad public impression of three wheelers could have a very bad effect on sales of all three wheeled vehicles.

So EM made the decision to push the federal autocycle law. So it specifies a steering wheel, rather than handle bars. I understand that a few state laws already said this. Fully enclosed? Some states required this, too. So EM could do one of two things: They could sponsor a bill that had tighter regulations and have a better chance of it passing, or they could sponsor a bill that had much looser regulations, and risk it not being acceptable. If it was your business and money on the line, which way would you go?

So, yeah, maybe they are pushing a law that excludes the SRK. Or the Sondors. Maybe by design, maybe not. (Keep in mind that the Sondors concept didn't exist when EM started pushing the federal autocycle regulation. Did Arcimoto? I really don't know.) The question I have is: Did Arcimoto or Sondors put up any money to get the laws changed? Did they approach EM and start a dialog about getting the bill changed so that their vehicle could meet the regulations? Did they think about modifying their vehicle to meet the regulation?

Gotta correct you on this. Can't let it stand. There seems to be a couple of things that you don't understand.
The states cannot nullify any federal requirement, but they still have unlimited freedom to add to the regulations...
As long as it doesn't nullify the federal requirements. There are states that already have an autocycle classification.

So we will still have your scenario where WA can still require a center fixture and Indiana can still require side by side seating...
Or anything else the states require in order for a vehicle to be considered a roadable autocycle in those states.
Except for the fact that EM will have gotten around the current federal MC headlight requirement...
Basically nothing will change except expensive posturing and window dressing.

It removes the need for their customers to have to go out and get motorcycle endorsements. It means that you don't have to wear a helmet inside your autocycle. It means you don't have to do research before crossing the state line. (As it stands, if I had an autocycle I could drive it in Ohio, but not in West Virginia.)

Rubbish. It does nothing of the sort.

State endorsement and helmet laws don't (and still won't) have a thing to do with federal vehicle class designations.
So that blows a hole in a large part of the theory. Front wheel drive required to be an autocycle...
And you say "Maybe by design, maybe not?"