Metal...body?

[Elio Amazed]

I agree Mel. This is a mistake and no cause for alarm.

I don't want my plant manager prone to mistakes, thank you very much.

 

[Horn]

Sorry Horn, that is false equivalence fallacy. The steering wheel and stereo where conventional (cheap, even) and didn't push the cost up.

Yes, the all-aluminum chassis was a major factor in the cost of the Insight. It would have been considerably cheaper to make (and not the wonder car it is) if it was steel. I'm pretty sure I read the manufacturing alone cost more than they sold it for, excluding R&D.

Yes, making Elios panels out of aluminum would be a bad choice as it would greatly increase the cost in direct conflict with Paul's "Must Haves".

The reason I mentioned those two things is because you made it seem that the Aluminum design was the main reason it lose money. The car lost money due to the expense of the technology as a whole. From the extensive aero design, hybrid technology, new transmission and Aluminum design. There were several things that caused it to be pricey. I don't think they expected this car to actually make money and the hybrid technology was to be used on future Honda vehicles. I also don't think they even expected to sell a lot. Therefore, fixed costs will be significantly higher. I would really like to see all the figure on the build and how much money they actually lost on the vehicle. It is harder to find those numbers. (To be fair, neither one of us have posted links backing our statements.)

I agree that it would move the cost up a bit. It should definitely be steel starting off. Plus, they have a lot bigger fish to fry than switching to a different type of material. If it gets built, it would be nice to see them go aluminum down the road. If price was equal, I would prefer aluminum over steel mainly due to the rust issues and weight. I just really hate rust.

 

[NSTG8R]

Try looking in a salt water area. All aluminum components need to be flushed after exposure to salt water including hulls.
(ask me how I know

Also, ask any owner of a Volvo powered boat.
(intake manifolds, heads, etc etc)

Got me on the salt water thing. But that's due to galvanic corrosion [dissimilar metals in an electrolyte, i.e.- salt water]. The only reason there's corrosion is because you have a steel or brass shaft and hardware in an aluminum engine/lower unit housing, including the hull if aluminum. You've just made a crude battery in those conditions. If it were all aluminum [not happening in an engine], the aluminum would laugh at the salt water. You could eliminate, or greatly reduce even that type of corrosion by mounting magnesium blocks on your boat as a sacrificial anode. That method, if Elio did go with an aluminum body, is what I'd got for.

The boats I'm referring to are only exposed to fresh water...and by "fresh" I mean water that tainted with fertilizers, rotting Asian Carp, and raw sewage from livestock [and the occasional beer-drinking 'river rat' ] found in the Missouri, Mississippi and Meramec Rivers.

 

[Ekh]

Excellent point GPA, which we've all missed.
Living In the PNW like Sethodine, we don't have rust problems here (which is really strange); but having come from South Chicago originally, I know all about rust problems.
I would have preferred having a composite body on the Elio, but being steel isn't really a deal breaker for me; either body material is fine, and long as it looks the same and performs the same.

It's all about the coatings. Rust (corrosion) is the most expensive infrastructure-related problem the US (and the rest of the world) has to cope with. Bridges, highways (rebar rusts), refrigerators,autos (in Cleveland, a car typically loses 10 pounds of its weight every year due to rust / corrosion), pipelines, skyscrapers, and the cheapshit metal grills rusting on every patio all rust. From the sockets of your light bulbs to the AA cells in your toys -- it costs us literally billions of dollars a year. Bridges collapse in Minneapolis and elsewhere. It's endemic. The picture shows a railroad trestle that is at least 80 years old and is still in daily use.

With correct coatings, rust and corrosion can be slowed way, way down. But as a society, we would rather rebuild our bridges every 30 years then spend the money to galvanize them, then paint them ... and more than double their lifespans.

This is dumb. In Ohio, we've finally seen the light and over 50,000 replacement bridges have been both galvanized and painted ... and the down-the-road savings will be tremendous.

There's a wonderful book on this topic called, simply, Rust: The Longest War: Jonathan Waldman: 9781451691597 ...
It's an amazingly lively read and makes the subject absolutely non-boring.

Now as for Elio, exactly how careful they're going to be with their stamped chassis and metal body to make sure, for instance, that they're not using incompatible metals in either chassis or panels AND THAT THE FASTENERS DON'T MAKE IT WORSE --- well I don't know. Few people give rust a high enough priority.

Of course, at the price point, Elio is basically a disposable car -- economically speaking, 5 or 6 years and you can just throw it out. Disposing of cars creates many problems, too -- but face it, it's not designed to run for 100 years and a day. So maybe I'm fretting for nothing.

 

[Ekh]

Got me on the salt water thing. But that's due to galvanic corrosion [dissimilar metals in an electrolyte, i.e.- salt water]. The only reason there's corrosion is because you have a steel or brass shaft and hardware in an aluminum engine/lower unit housing, including the hull if aluminum. You've just made a crude battery in those conditions. If it were all aluminum [not happening in an engine], the aluminum would laugh at the salt water. You could eliminate, or greatly reduce even that type of corrosion by mounting magnesium blocks on your boat as a sacrificial anode. That method, if Elio did go with an aluminum body, is what I'd got for.

The boats I'm referring to are only exposed to fresh water...and by "fresh" I mean water that tainted with fertilizers, rotting Asian Carp, and raw sewage from livestock [and the occasional beer-drinking 'river rat' ] found in the Missouri, Mississippi and Meramec Rivers.

Thank you for a sane and well-written comment.

 

[Ekh]

Got me on the salt water thing. But that's due to galvanic corrosion [dissimilar metals in an electrolyte, i.e.- salt water]. The only reason there's corrosion is because you have a steel or brass shaft and hardware in an aluminum engine/lower unit housing, including the hull if aluminum. You've just made a crude battery in those conditions. If it were all aluminum [not happening in an engine], the aluminum would laugh at the salt water. You could eliminate, or greatly reduce even that type of corrosion by mounting magnesium blocks on your boat as a sacrificial anode. That method, if Elio did go with an aluminum body, is what I'd got for.

The boats I'm referring to are only exposed to fresh water...and by "fresh" I mean water that tainted with fertilizers, rotting Asian Carp, and raw sewage from livestock [and the occasional beer-drinking 'river rat' ] found in the Missouri, Mississippi and Meramec Rivers.

Zinc is usually used for sacrificial anodes.

 

[NSTG8R]

Zinc is usually used for sacrificial anodes.

True. And probably easier to find. Zinc and magnesium are lower on the noble scale than aluminum.

 

[NSTG8R]

It's all about the coatings. Rust (corrosion) is the most expensive infrastructure-related problem the US (and the rest of the world) has to cope with. Bridges, highways (rebar rusts), refrigerators,autos (in Cleveland, a car typically loses 10 pounds of its weight every year due to rust / corrosion), pipelines, skyscrapers, and the cheapshit metal grills rusting on every patio, to the sockets of your light bulbs to the AA cells in your toys -- it costs us literally billions of dollars a year. Bridges collapse in Minneapolis and elsewhere. It's endemic.


With correct coatings, rust and corrosion can be slowed way, way down. But as a society, we would rather rebuild our bridges every 30 years then spend the money to galvanize them, then paint them ... and more than double their lifespans.

This is dumb. In Ohio, we've finally seen the light and over 50,000 replacement bridges have been both galvanized and painted ... and the down-the-road savings will be tremendous.

There's a wonderful book on this topic called, simply, Rust: The Longest War: Jonathan Waldman: 9781451691597 ...
Very readable.

Now as for Elio, exactly how careful they're going to be with their stamped chassis and metal body to make sure, for instance, that they're not using incompatible metals in either chassis or panels AND THAT THE FASTENERS DON'T MAKE IT WORSE --- well I don't know. Few people give rust a high enough priority.

Of course, at the price point, Elio is basically a disposable car -- economically speaking, 5 or 6 years and you can just throw it out. Disposing of cars creates many problems, too -- but face it, it's not designed to run for 100 years and a day. So maybe I'm fretting for nothing.
Anyway, here's what the book cover for Rust looks like. It's an amazingly lively read and makes the subject absolutely non-boring.

View attachment 10824

Excellent post! As for coatings, I'd like to give props to POR-15 (POR = Paint Over Rust). This stuff is CRAZY hard after it cures, and impossible to get off your hands if you're not wearing protective gloves [HIGHLY recommended...Unless you don't mind black on your hands for a week or two ].

As for fasteners of dissimilar metals to the structure. We "wet" install them with a type of rubber sealant, but a dab of paint during installation would work just as well.

Good stuff, guys! You've got me thinking about stuff I may want to consider doing to my baby when I get her safely home. She's got to last for 5+ years of to and from work traffic, and still be in solid enough shape when retired from service to go crazy and have fun with.


Oops! A link would be nice!

http://www.por15.com/Rust-Preventive-Coating_c_11.html

 

[Ocean9000]

Excellent post! As for coatings, I'd like to give props to POR-15 (POR = Paint Over Rust). This stuff is CRAZY hard after it cures, and impossible to get off your hands if you're not wearing protective gloves [HIGHLY recommended...Unless you don't mind black on your hands for a week or two ].

As for fasteners of dissimilar metals to the structure. We "wet" install them with a type of rubber sealant, but a dab of paint during installation would work just as well.

Good stuff, guys! You've got me thinking about stuff I may want to consider doing to my baby when I get her safely home. She's got to last for 5+ years of to and from work traffic, and still be in solid enough shape when retired from service to go crazy and have fun with.


Oops! A link would be nice!

http://www.por15.com/Rust-Preventive-Coating_c_11.html

Thanks for the link Nstg8r, it looks like it could be very useful - I will have to try some when my gallon of Peganox runs low/hardens. (Of particular interest, clear!)

 

[bowers baldwin]

I hear about "Aviation Grade" aluminum a LOT.
50 years ago this would have been impressive. Today, it's the bare minimum quality for any vehicle from bicycles to cars and... well... airplanes.

It's like saying "We add 'food grade' ingredients in our hamburger"

Watch out for key words and buzz words trying to sell you something. It's likely just salesman bull....um bologna.

Can anyone post a list of cars with aluminum or composite panels? I'm honestly not sure how common it is.

All my Miatas had aluminum hoods, a very light hood, and there were many many stone chips on it and they never "rusted" or spread in size.