Metal...body?

[Elio Amazed]

I was thinking an Elio decked out to look like the Delorean time machine would be pretty sweet looking.

I'll bet Frim would like your way of thinking.

 

[Frim]

I was thinking an Elio decked out to look like the Delorean time machine would be pretty sweet looking.

Here we go again, toot toot.

 

[Thomas Malkin]

A move to steel body panels rather than composite would shorten the Elio's useful life by half or more where I live. Nothing will stop the salt from destroying it in ten years or less other than garaging it for six months a year. (sigh) I will keep my fingers crossed...

That is the only problem. The pour the Bonneville salt flats on my city the second flurries fall from the sky. I'm a street parker, so what happens is my car is soaked for months in a foot-deep salt water Slurpee, or alternately, frozen in a block of black salty ice. If you clear the spot of all snow, and I do, the snow plow trucks will sweep by and bury it again, or spray it with salty sludge. No matter what you do, steel will rust quickly under those conditions.

What doesn't deteroriate? Saturns, the real ones. They live forever. Plastic body panels.

 

[Thomas Malkin]

I don't understand why everybody is getting their shorts in a wad. It's obvious to me that he's talking about the "frame" of the vehicle. Since the frame completely surrounds the passenger compartment, he's calling it a "body".

Body panels confirmed, but I'm sure you all know that by now.

 

[Thomas Malkin]

One other problem with aluminum is that you cannot repair it; if you dent it, the only fix is to replace it.
Once aluminum has been stretched, you can't shrink it back to size, ask anyone who had a 60's - 70's era British car (like an MG, or an Austin) the hoods were aluminum. Something people with the new Ford pickups are about to learn.

Body panels of aluminium don't have those problems. Frames, maybe.

 

[Thomas Malkin]

S

I have read that Aluminum Oxidation is more detrimental to Aluminum panels then rust is to steel panels.

Road Salt happens to be more damaging to Aluminum than it is steel. Most steel used on automobiles needs to be coated with Rust inhibitor.

I'd think a coat of wax would solve the problem of aluminum dissolving as it rusts. No water, no rust.

 

[Thomas Malkin]

Steel:
+Easily Reparable
+Inexpensive to manufacture with existing technologies
-susceptible to corrosion
?weight (not sure of steel is lighter or heavier than composite)

Aluminum:
+lighter than steel (generally)
-more expensive to manufacture
--difficult to repair
-susceptible to corrosion
?weight

From a manufacturing point of view, it's actually a good idea to go with steel.
I am curious what the weight penalty would be (if any) and what the logical progression was to make the (possible) change.

The idea is to get the car into production as quickly, efficiently and inexpensively as possible. If going to steel panels helps, I say make the change.

They can research and implement composite panels on later models.

The sad reality is that very few body shops will "repair" a damaged body panel...other than simple "dings". There is more profit in "replacing" parts. About 15 years ago, I asked "how much would you charge (cash, NOT insurance money) to repaint my mini-van?" The body shop owner said, "I don't want the job." He said he can't pay the bills without the 25% mark-up from replacing parts.
Not what I wanted to hear but, I understand it.

It's true. Bring a car with a minor rust spot problem, and they just look at you sadly, tell you they can Bondo it, but it will rust out again. They won't cut and replace, they simply don't do it. If you find one that can, they'll quote you enormous fees. My last attempt, they told me to just buy a similar car with no rust, as it would be cheaper than trying to repair the rust. Rust is a dark demon god for repair shops. I don't think the know-how even exists to repair rust. (rust-killing primer that bonds with the oxide works perfectly after you sand the rust off - shhhh).

Steel panels are cheap, work great, and in the north are a guaranteed car-purchase profit generator, as people *must* unload the unsightly yet perfectly functional cars they have before they are worthless.

 

[Johnny Acree]

That is the only problem. The pour the Bonneville salt flats on my city the second flurries fall from the sky. I'm a street parker, so what happens is my car is soaked for months in a foot-deep salt water Slurpee, or alternately, frozen in a block of black salty ice. If you clear the spot of all snow, and I do, the snow plow trucks will sweep by and bury it again, or spray it with salty sludge. No matter what you do, steel will rust quickly under those conditions.

What doesn't deteroriate? Saturns, the real ones. They live forever. Plastic body panels.

Question about the saturns. How does the steel structure under the plastic hold up?
I'm in GA, but I've seen northern cars. Outside clean and shinny, inside clean and low mileage. The underside, total rust! Suspension parts to brake drums and rotors.
It seems to me that in those conditions that rust is the price you pay to live there. Look at it this way. What ever you buy will be a disposable car, so do you but a $7300.00 Elio or a $20,000.00 something else?

 

[Ty]

I agree that cars have come along way in rust proofing, but my Saturn's composite body held up way better than my '99 Mercedes SUV. The zinc in galvanized metal is a sacrificial material that when salt uses it up, it stops protecting. I'm sure metal is cheaper especially in high quantity production when Elio has switched to a unibody. As far as it being environmentally green because it is more recyclable, that is countered by it not lasting as long. I think Shreveport is set up for a metal unibody car, so why did they go to the expense of making fiberglass molds - just seems like this wasn't well thought out. Makes me wonder if what little we have heard about the engine production is accurate, and if they are still going with a cylinder flame spray process, and where the engine is going to be manufactured?

For building a proof of concept with almost certain body changes and engineering adjustments to the frame and thus body attachment points, it would have made no sense whatsoever to go through the expense of building sheet metal presses to build what ended up being one-offs. It is MUCH cheaper to make a single item out of fiberglass than steel.

 

[Ty]

It's true. Bring a car with a minor rust spot problem, and they just look at you sadly, tell you they can Bondo it, but it will rust out again. They won't cut and replace, they simply don't do it. If you find one that can, they'll quote you enormous fees. My last attempt, they told me to just buy a similar car with no rust, as it would be cheaper than trying to repair the rust. Rust is a dark demon god for repair shops. I don't think the know-how even exists to repair rust. (rust-killing primer that bonds with the oxide works perfectly after you sand the rust off - shhhh).

Steel panels are cheap, work great, and in the north are a guaranteed car-purchase profit generator, as people *must* unload the unsightly yet perfectly functional cars they have before they are worthless.

LOL... I had a MUCH different experience. I bought an old Falcon... It was 48 years old but had spent the last 25 years sitting in a driveway. It had some rust, of course. BUT, I was able to simply use a wire wheel to get rid of the rust, bondo for slight dents, some buildable primer, and then paint. It wasn't that difficult. I wonder why your area can't figure that out.