Funding Refused By Paul Elio

[AriLea]

It occurs to me, another way to go forward...
Limit the standard Elio production to 70k units or so, but in parallel produce the Elio Turbo version at $14k sales price and only accept new reservations on that one for a year. Well, also sell a third version as electric, but at $22k each which would be the lowest priced EV on the market. (Smart-ForTwo-ED= $23K) And since the current battery tech would have very limited range in the current chassis, of course promise to offer replacement after-market battery packs as the technology gets better.

Could they do this on the same production line? For most if it yes. Turbos get installed in a alternate assembly step, EV's get a manual trans-axle skip the part where the engine goes in, but add an alternate step for the battery pack and harness options, then later off to another assembly line for motor/controller and power system wiring. Something like that.

After the 60k units are produced, continue to offer the turbo at $14K-$16k, EV at $22k and the regular naked Elio at $11k to $13K. It's worth it if that would enable investors.

 

[Ty]

It occurs to me, another way to go forward...
Limit the standard Elio production to 70k units or so, but in parallel produce the Elio Turbo version at $16k sales price and only accept new reservations on that one for a year. Well, also sell a third version as electric, but at $22k each which would be the lowest priced EV on the market. (Smart-ForTwo-ED= $23K) And since the current battery tech would have very limited range in the current chassis, of course promise to offer replacement after-market battery packs as the technology gets better.

Could they do this on the same production line? For most if it yes. Turbos get installed in a alternate assembly step, EV's get a manual trans-axle skip the part where the engine goes in, but add an alternate step for the battery pack and harness options, then later off to another assembly line for motor/controller and power system wiring. Something like that.

After the 60k units are produced, continue to offer the turbo at $14K-$16k, EV at $22k and the regular naked Elio at $11k to $13K. It's worth it if that would enable investors.

At this point, that may be the best way forward - honor the current spot in line holders... OR, hey, offer to let them jump lines from the cheap Elio to the EE (Electric Elio) or the TE (Turbo Elio)... This would work a couple different ways. 1. It would instantly put some demand in a queue for the EE and ET. 2. It would lessen the liability of having to sell so many Elios at the discounted price. 3. It would make Elio more attractive to investors because batteries. Oh, and because you'd diversify your lineup a little and, yeah, batteries.

 

[RSchneider]

I think that trying to do gas and electric is a bad idea. It's way too complex to successfully integrate the two for mass production. You have to pick one and currently, investment is into electric. With mass production you are not in the business to please a few. That's why we have the niche market. There, you cater to their wants and desires but the price point is reflected in that. For Elio, they are having enough of a problem with using ICE and that was to be easy. They are not even close to their final design for their current version, let alone trying to make an EV version.

You have to keep it simple and for what the new generation of buyers are interested in. Right now, that's EV's. Two years from now they will want even more EV's. As we all know, Elio will not be producing for a while no matter what. Currently we are almost to the end of the first quarter of 2021. Remember when Elio used to quote a target of a year and quarter?

 

[3wheelin]

I think that trying to do gas and electric is a bad idea. It's way too complex to successfully integrate the two for mass production. You have to pick one and currently, investment is into electric. With mass production you are not in the business to please a few. That's why we have the niche market. There, you cater to their wants and desires but the price point is reflected in that. For Elio, they are having enough of a problem with using ICE and that was to be easy. They are not even close to their final design for their current version, let alone trying to make an EV version.

You have to keep it simple and for what the new generation of buyers are interested in. Right now, that's EV's. Two years from now they will want even more EV's. As we all know, Elio will not be producing for a while no matter what. Currently we are almost to the end of the first quarter of 2021. Remember when Elio used to quote a target of a year and quarter?

It does makes sense. I would assume that PE is still at the helm trying to right his ship and if he's still fighting to deliver our ELIO at the cheapest price possible, then all power to him and I salute him for that! ELIO's current design is still best to achieve incredible mileage using a proven and efficient 3cy ICE with no distance anxiety. I only wish investors can see it's potentials and not just dollars and cents.

 

[RSchneider]

It does makes sense. I would assume that PE is still at the helm trying to right his ship and if he's still fighting to deliver our ELIO at the cheapest price possible, then all power to him and I salute him for that! ELIO's current design is still best to achieve incredible mileage using a proven and efficient 3cy ICE with no distance anxiety. I only wish investors can see it's potentials and not just dollars and cents.

As an engineer I want to see proof that it can get the claimed mileage and be built at that cost but still make a profit so the workers can get paid. Then for Elio to make enough money, to not be out of business 6 months after production starts. At this point, there's zero proof that it can be done. Just the company says it can be done. It's the best design according to them. I want to see it actually done and it's been 11 years with zero data and Paul claiming, "half the width and double the mileage." So that means, my old VW TDI Jetta would give 98 mpg according to official tests from the EPA as long as it was in an Elio. Yet a 3 cylinder ICE from a Mitsubishi will only give 72 mpg in an Elio. A brand new Prius driveline will give 106 mpg and no distance anxiety. Who here would not want Prius power with that massive mileage and no worries about distance? Seems like to me that Elio is the winner with the Prius or 25 year old VW TDI powertrain. Even if it's not exactly double, 106 mpg for the Elio Hybrid cranking out 120 hp would above 84, even on a bad day.

 

[AriLea]

Agreed, the electric version would take a lot of good engineering to do it right to the newest tech, and be costly on setting up in production. However, when using current off the shelf tech, not so much, and can be done post production, not much of an investment at all. What do you lose? Range, 85% vs 95% efficiency, less brake recovery, less powerful, limits on production scale-up, no patent protection, clunky implementation. But hey, doable.

ICE MPG, yep, I had a car with the engine Elio first tested with, at best I got 45mpg. If Elio got 72 out of that, that's about what I would expect. Of course if you have a lot of lead in your foot you will get under 40mpg in the Elio I'm sure.

The ICE sufferers a thermal efficiency loss as it gets smaller, and the same goes for partial throttle operation due to 'pumping losses'. EV's not at all as much.
So a comparable half sized EV can get very close to double the MPG. While in two comparable ICE (full vs half) that is not true.

For example if you took a car and cut it's weight in half (25% in total energy requirement at 60mph), as an ICE (same engine) you would not see comparable ratio improvement in mpg. But with a smaller engine a little better. But with EV you would see much closer no mater what the motor peak HP rating. Also consider you can get the same range specs out of a smaller pack, reducing the pack weight too if you wish, and beat the prior savings.

EV don't always scale up so well. At some threshold, a bigger pack forces a bigger-heavier structure, with big impacts to range. It was possible in Lead-Acid to end up with a vehicle with less acceleration, mpg AND range while doubling all the hardware involved. Just say'in.

 

[RSchneider]

Agreed, the electric version would take a lot of good engineering to do it right to the newest tech, and be costly on setting up in production. However, when using current off the shelf tech, not so much, and can be done post production, not much of an investment at all. What do you lose? Range, 85% vs 95% efficiency, less brake recovery, less powerful, limits on production scale-up, no patent protection, clunky implementation. But hey, doable.

ICE MPG, yep, I had a car with the engine Elio first tested with, at best I got 45mpg. If Elio got 72 out of that, that's about what I would expect. Of course if you have a lot of lead in your foot you will get under 40mpg in the Elio I'm sure.

The ICE sufferers a thermal efficiency loss as it gets smaller, and the same goes for partial throttle operation due to 'pumping losses'. EV's not at all as much.
So a comparable half sized EV can get very close to double the MPG. While in two comparable ICE (full vs half) that is not true.

For example if you took a car and cut it's weight in half (25% in total energy requirement at 60mph), as an ICE (same engine) you would not see comparable ratio improvement in mpg. But with a smaller engine a little better. But with EV you would see much closer no mater what the motor peak HP rating. Also consider you can get the same range specs out of a smaller pack, reducing the pack weight too if you wish, and beat the prior savings.

EV don't always scale up so well. At some threshold, a bigger pack forces a bigger-heavier structure, with big impacts to range. It was possible in Lead-Acid to end up with a vehicle with less acceleration, mpg AND range while doubling all the hardware involved. Just say'in.

What I'm bringing up is that it's not a linear relationship. Half the width is double the mileage makes no sense because of things like
- Overall efficiency of ICE
- Overall efficiency of transmissions
- Overall efficiency of wheels/tires
- Aerodynamics

There as many other losses that are staying the same. Elio did not find some magical efficiency from a 2 valve 1000 cc 3 cylinder that has not already been found. Aisin doesn't make a special transmission that has less loss than what they currently produce. Continental doesn't make some tire that has some different properties than what is already out there, Elio is not using some super lightweight rotating components etc.. Then the Elio is not half the width. The main structure is but it still has outriggers in the front.

For me, I want to see the Elio undergo a test from a second party that uses the same exact test a car gets. Then that will tell us what it really does when comparing the competition. You have to use the same test procedure if you are going to compare. So far, no test from Elio to prove the numbers. many people are expecting it'll give 84 mpg because that's what they were told (most forget the up to part). With Roush doing the engineering on the Elio, they have the ability to do this test and it would take no more than a week to schedule, do it and then publish the results. That would be a great boost for Elio if indeed it hits, even 80 mpg. I want Elio to prove I'm wrong.

 

[3wheelin]

What I'm bringing up is that it's not a linear relationship. Half the width is double the mileage makes no sense because of things like
- Overall efficiency of ICE
- Overall efficiency of transmissions
- Overall efficiency of wheels/tires
- Aerodynamics

There as many other losses that are staying the same. Elio did not find some magical efficiency from a 2 valve 1000 cc 3 cylinder that has not already been found. Aisin doesn't make a special transmission that has less loss than what they currently produce. Continental doesn't make some tire that has some different properties than what is already out there, Elio is not using some super lightweight rotating components etc.. Then the Elio is not half the width. The main structure is but it still has outriggers in the front.

For me, I want to see the Elio undergo a test from a second party that uses the same exact test a car gets. Then that will tell us what it really does when comparing the competition. You have to use the same test procedure if you are going to compare. So far, no test from Elio to prove the numbers. many people are expecting it'll give 84 mpg because that's what they were told (most forget the up to part). With Roush doing the engineering on the Elio, they have the ability to do this test and it would take no more than a week to schedule, do it and then publish the results. That would be a great boost for Elio if indeed it hits, even 80 mpg. I want Elio to prove I'm wrong.

You should ask Roush directly since it looks like you're the guy that make things happen. Reaching out to EM is a dead end with the same standard reply "thanks for reaching out...., follow our blog...., we're working hard to acquire funding....etc.) EM is way past the point of no return. They could've tested it when money was available and they have that one off engine shown being tested (...and results not posted) but for some reason nothing came out of that. Any car designer with lots of experience like Chip Foose can make an identical ELIO from scratch and body made out of light and strong carbon fibers, extensive use of aluminum for frames, engine, etc. and that Holy Grail 84 mpg might be achievable. Start drooling if you can afford it! But wait, we're not here to discuss an exotic ELIO, we just wanted a 7K 3wheeler that won't fall apart as soon as it's driven out of the factory!

 

[RSchneider]

You should ask Roush directly since it looks like you're the guy that make things happen.

Too bad Roush does not discuss anything with anybody. So, they will not discuss the top secret stuff they are doing for Elio just like they will not when they are doing something for any other customer. Unless you are a paid employee or approved supplier from a particular customer, they will not respond at all. In the end, Elio would have to hire me and then let Roush know I'll be calling. From the current state of Elio's finances, I don't work for free or or with stock.

As for the Elio, any one of the hundreds of tube frame racecar chassis builders out there could crank out an Elio frame. If someone could just scan in the body, it could be 3D printed in a week. Use a mid 90's Metro for a donor and you will have most of it done.

 

[BADBOY]

My question is did Roush ask Pul Elio "where you getting the $300+ million?" before he agreed to be part of this er situation? It doesn't matter if "they could produce this way". EV or gas? Still need the dinero!