Ekh
Elio Addict
Of course you do; it's almost as crudely registered as the elgin dash.
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Function & Cost Of Amt Vs Manual: Interesting...
- Thread starter Elio Amazed
- Start date
When you do that comparison, include how much power you lose with a CVT. It you want an easy comparison look up a Nissan then look up a comparable Infinity with a stick; if I remember correctly it's about a 30% loss of power to the drive wheels.
And a CVT = Continuously variable transmission <-- click the link
CrimsonEclipse
Elio Addict
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CVT is an interesting option.
It's an entirely different system so no commonality with the Manual and AMT.
This would make it's more expensive. There are fewer moving parts which is a really good thing.
The efficiency is the highest of all three. Being continually (infinitely) variable, it can choose the best gear ratio at any given time for conditions. It would likely add 3-6 mpg and possibly faster acceleration as well as being easier on the engine mounts and other drive train parts.
The biggest consideration would be the programming of the computer that controls the ratio.
In my experience, the Toyota CVT's that I've driven were wonderful to drive, it seemed to read my mind on when to "shift", while the Nissan CVT's left a lot to be desired (really sluggish).
Fun fact: Most auto CVT's belt actually push the gear instead of pulling like a bicycle so there is never "slack" in the belt.
Ware on the belt is the biggest problem for concern. I don't know the expected time before replacement.
To fit the Elio design philosophy, it will need to be inexpensive, efficient and easy to work on.
The reported loss on modern CVT's are around 12%.
So, better than a toque converter auto.
If a transmission company desides to step forward and produce a CVT to Elio's power requirement and simple maintenance standards, I would consider it... on my second Elio.
Edit:
Manual -vs- CVT efficiency comparison:
The manual transmission is more efficient mechanically, meaning power going -vs- power going to the wheels.
The CVT is more efficient as a system. Because it allows the engine to turn at the most thermally efficient RPM at ALL TIMES. The increased thermal efficiency offsets the slight mechanical loss compared to the manual transmission.
It's an entirely different system so no commonality with the Manual and AMT.
This would make it's more expensive. There are fewer moving parts which is a really good thing.
The efficiency is the highest of all three. Being continually (infinitely) variable, it can choose the best gear ratio at any given time for conditions. It would likely add 3-6 mpg and possibly faster acceleration as well as being easier on the engine mounts and other drive train parts.
The biggest consideration would be the programming of the computer that controls the ratio.
In my experience, the Toyota CVT's that I've driven were wonderful to drive, it seemed to read my mind on when to "shift", while the Nissan CVT's left a lot to be desired (really sluggish).
Fun fact: Most auto CVT's belt actually push the gear instead of pulling like a bicycle so there is never "slack" in the belt.
Ware on the belt is the biggest problem for concern. I don't know the expected time before replacement.
To fit the Elio design philosophy, it will need to be inexpensive, efficient and easy to work on.
The reported loss on modern CVT's are around 12%.
So, better than a toque converter auto.
If a transmission company desides to step forward and produce a CVT to Elio's power requirement and simple maintenance standards, I would consider it... on my second Elio.
Edit:
Manual -vs- CVT efficiency comparison:
The manual transmission is more efficient mechanically, meaning power going -vs- power going to the wheels.
The CVT is more efficient as a system. Because it allows the engine to turn at the most thermally efficient RPM at ALL TIMES. The increased thermal efficiency offsets the slight mechanical loss compared to the manual transmission.
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Jeff Miller
Elio Addict
Unfortunately I can't cite a source of information but it is my understanding that CVTs were not well accepted in the US because of the RPM issue. Namely, the engine always sounded like it was running too fast.
CrimsonEclipse
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It's likely true. The standard Luddite will not understand the technology and then deem it "weird" and feel uncomfortable. Some manufacturers even added a "shift" feature in the CVT to simulate the gear shifting, which defeats the purpose of making them in the first place.
Manufacturers like CVT's because they allow the MPG number on the sales sticker to be slightly higher and allow for a higher price, thus more profit.
Their marketing strategy should have been to sell them for cheap until they have market dominance, then boost the price.
A person will take the extra 1-4 weeks to get used to the RPM difference if they save $1000 (in a non-Elio car)
aknaten
Elio Addict
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My '62 VW Bug could be started with a running push and then a jump into the driver's seat. Not safe but what teenager ever considered safety. Once I had installed some kind of aftermarket "fuel saver" magnet on my VW's gas line. Driving around the hose slipped off and I saw flames out my rear window. Stopped, opened the engine hood, thought for a couple of seconds, and gave the flames the biggest blow I could muster from my young lungs. The fire went out! Aside from a few singed wires and eyebrows, it still ran. Got rid of the fuel saver and got some new clamps. Can't remember why I thought I needed a fuel saver. Gas must have cost 25 cents a gallon. Ah, those were the days.
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I believe the CVT was not well received because of the sound of the engine and lack of "feel" of shifting, and I have heard fake shift feel has been programed in to "comfort" buyers. I would prefer it with no fake simulations. The fact it is running at optimal power or economy is what I care about and appreciate. I know I will quickly become familiar with it and the different "feel" will no longer bother me.
A vehicle with CVT should be programmable for maximum power or economy, depending on what the owner wants. It should also be programmable to have fake shift feel or not. It should be this way, but that does not mean it does. Perhaps these choices are available by plugging into the OBD receptacle.
Here is a list of vehicles with CVTs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automobiles_with_continuously_variable_transmissions
I am surprised the list is so long. Perhaps CVTs are the wave of the future. They look like they would be inexpensive to build. I understand their life is not as long, But they also look inexpensive to rebuild.
I like a machine that is at optimal power. I can't help it. I like power. I like a machine that will move when I open the throttle. Check my avatar. ( Yes, I did take it to its top speed one time--186mph.) Open the throttle on this when it is in the power band and you have to literally hold on.
A vehicle with CVT should be programmable for maximum power or economy, depending on what the owner wants. It should also be programmable to have fake shift feel or not. It should be this way, but that does not mean it does. Perhaps these choices are available by plugging into the OBD receptacle.
Here is a list of vehicles with CVTs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automobiles_with_continuously_variable_transmissions
I am surprised the list is so long. Perhaps CVTs are the wave of the future. They look like they would be inexpensive to build. I understand their life is not as long, But they also look inexpensive to rebuild.
I like a machine that is at optimal power. I can't help it. I like power. I like a machine that will move when I open the throttle. Check my avatar. ( Yes, I did take it to its top speed one time--186mph.) Open the throttle on this when it is in the power band and you have to literally hold on.
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DAVID BROWER
Elio Addict
LES TILBURY WHO RAN THE MESSERSCHMITT CLUB HEARD THE SOUND OF HIS MESSERSCHMITT
TRYING TO START START & THEN DIE ONE MORNING . THIS HAPPENED A COUPLE OF TIMES .
HE LOOKED OUT THE WINDOW AND SAW A COUPLE OF PUNKS TRYING TO HOT-WIRE HIS CAR .
BUT THEY WERE HAVING SOME PROBLEMS GETTING IT TO RUN .
HE CALLED THE COPS KNOWING THE STATION IS JUST DOWN THE STREET &
THEY WOULD BE THERE IN TWO MINUTES .
HE WATCHED THEM FOR A MINUTE AND WENT OUTSIDE . "HAVING SOME TROUBLE WITH YOUR CAR ?"
HE ASKS THEM . "THIS OLD CAR LIKES TO GET CRANKY IN THE MORNING" THEY REPLY .
"THESE OLD BIRDS HAVE A FUEL VALVE . YOU WON'T GET IT TO RUN UNLESS YOU TURN ON THE GAS ."
"LOOK THERE IT IS IN THE THE BACK . "
"HEY THANKS CHAP ! FORGOT ALL ABOUT IT . " THEY TURN ON THE VALVE .
THE CAR NOW STARTS IMMEDIATELY AND THE COPS SHOW UP JUST AS THEY GET IN TO STEAL THE CAR .
TRUE STORY I AM TOLD .
TRYING TO START START & THEN DIE ONE MORNING . THIS HAPPENED A COUPLE OF TIMES .
HE LOOKED OUT THE WINDOW AND SAW A COUPLE OF PUNKS TRYING TO HOT-WIRE HIS CAR .
BUT THEY WERE HAVING SOME PROBLEMS GETTING IT TO RUN .
HE CALLED THE COPS KNOWING THE STATION IS JUST DOWN THE STREET &
THEY WOULD BE THERE IN TWO MINUTES .
HE WATCHED THEM FOR A MINUTE AND WENT OUTSIDE . "HAVING SOME TROUBLE WITH YOUR CAR ?"
HE ASKS THEM . "THIS OLD CAR LIKES TO GET CRANKY IN THE MORNING" THEY REPLY .
"THESE OLD BIRDS HAVE A FUEL VALVE . YOU WON'T GET IT TO RUN UNLESS YOU TURN ON THE GAS ."
"LOOK THERE IT IS IN THE THE BACK . "
"HEY THANKS CHAP ! FORGOT ALL ABOUT IT . " THEY TURN ON THE VALVE .
THE CAR NOW STARTS IMMEDIATELY AND THE COPS SHOW UP JUST AS THEY GET IN TO STEAL THE CAR .
TRUE STORY I AM TOLD .
trock59
Elio Addict
The manual transmission is not being eliminated but simply being shifted for the "driver" by a computer. It's only obsolete or slow for those who seem to have more important things to to when they should be driving. MPG is not a factor as only a small percentage of buyers will try to squeeze every mile from a gallon of gas. Most of us will drive the heck out of it and be happy w/ 50 - 60 mpg