For Those Who Think Ev Information Is Appropriate For An Elio Forum...

[Elio Amazed]

PowerCell Sweden Receives Order from Chinese Customer to Deliver Fuel Cell Stacks to be used as Range Extenders in Cars

Click here for the article: fuelcellsworks.com

"Fuel Cells will show their greatness . . .
"For several years, the customer has used battery power in their vehicles, but has found that the limited capacity of the power grid, the lack of access to charging posts and the slow charging of the batteries limit the potential of progress.

“The fuel cell stacks, 20 kW each, ordered by the customer will be used as so-called range extenders in the cars. This makes it possible to drive a lot further than if you were forced to rely solely on battery power. It’s a smart way to combine the respective benefits of batteries and fuel cells, and it’s a background to the growing interest in fuel cells”, concluded Per Wassén."

 

[johnsnownw]

PowerCell Sweden Receives Order from Chinese Customer to Deliver Fuel Cell Stacks to be used as Range Extenders in Cars

Click here for the article: fuelcellsworks.com

"Fuel Cells will show their greatness . . .
"For several years, the customer has used battery power in their vehicles, but has found that the limited capacity of the power grid, the lack of access to charging posts and the slow charging of the batteries limit the potential of progress.

“The fuel cell stacks, 20 kW each, ordered by the customer will be used as so-called range extenders in the cars. This makes it possible to drive a lot further than if you were forced to rely solely on battery power. It’s a smart way to combine the respective benefits of batteries and fuel cells, and it’s a background to the growing interest in fuel cells”, concluded Per Wassén."

Terrible idea with the current state of the H2 network, and, unfortunately, FCs and tanks take up a lot of room.

 

[RSchneider]

Terrible idea with the current state of the H2 network, and, unfortunately, FCs and tanks take up a lot of room.

Why is it a terrible idea? We all know that the H2 network in China is not good at all and FC's take up a lot of room. If you read the article you'll see why it's a great idea. They are using them for testing. So, it makes no sense for this Chinese company to develop their own H2 fuel cell when they can guy an off the shelf component and thus, test to see if it's a good idea or not. For me, I like to test out new technology and see if it can be utilized for future use as opposed to using old technology because I know it'll work yet can be outdated in a few years.

This is why Elio is a big hit because "With our ePlus: My Elio, My Way program, Elio owners can bring back their vehicles to an Elio store and add new tech to their vehicles a la carte. This way, you won’t need to buy a new vehicle to keep up with new technology."

Think about it. Elio can offer a H2 fuel cell as part of their ePlus program and you can go with it or not. Having a range extender for an Elio would be cool.

 

[johnsnownw]

Why is it a terrible idea? We all know that the H2 network in China is not good at all and FC's take up a lot of room. If you read the article you'll see why it's a great idea. They are using them for testing. So, it makes no sense for this Chinese company to develop their own H2 fuel cell when they can guy an off the shelf component and thus, test to see if it's a good idea or not. For me, I like to test out new technology and see if it can be utilized for future use as opposed to using old technology because I know it'll work yet can be outdated in a few years.

This is why Elio is a big hit because "With our ePlus: My Elio, My Way program, Elio owners can bring back their vehicles to an Elio store and add new tech to their vehicles a la carte. This way, you won’t need to buy a new vehicle to keep up with new technology."

Think about it. Elio can offer a H2 fuel cell as part of their ePlus program and you can go with it or not. Having a range extender for an Elio would be cool.

H2 is a complete dead end. H2 costs more than gasoline, and it always will. It's extremely energy intensive to produce in a "green" manner, or in any other manner for that matter.

I would never put my family in a vehicle with one or more tanks of 10,000 psi hydrogen fuel. Heck, most people wouldn't put their family in CNG vehicles, which operate at half that pressure, if history is anything to go on.

FCEVs may have a place, but H2 does not...and even if FCEVs can be made cheaper and H2 costs can be greatly reduced...it still won't make sense to use it in light-duty vehicles.

As for Elio using H2, it would be VERY difficult for them to fit all the necessary equipment for an FCEV in the Elio package...certainly they'd lose the second passenger capability.

That's really just the tip of the iceberg as to why H2 is a dead end, but it's at least a glimpse.

 

[johnsnownw]

Fair enough. Say 20% of the 500k reservations are outside the US. That means you get your US-reserved Model 3 20%, or 20 weeks, faster. So you're looking at August-September 2019.

Assuming that Tesla immediately starts building 5k/week. Which is a production target he's been promising to hit "real soon now" for almost six months, but failing to actually reach?

Look, the Tesla Model 3 is, from everything I've read, a great car. A game-changer, really. You can probably thank the Model 3 for the fact that we now have cars like the Bolt and new Leaf. But if you think that you can go reserve one now, and drive it home before 2020, you're delusional. If you don't already have a Model 3 reservation, and you want to drive a great electric any time in the next two years, go buy something else. Because you're not getting a Model 3.

It depends yet again, as Tesla tends to group produce vehicles. So you can potentially get one sooner if you're looking for specific options, and you move up the priority list if you already own one.

Tesla has moved the ramp of 5k/week until Q2, however they plan to ramp up to 10k/yr sometime this year. It all depends on how quickly they can ramp as to whether people are going to be able to snag one (in the US) before 2020. They will also sell New Inventory Model 3's eventually...as they are already producing some to put in stores. So there is the potential to get one pre-made before 2020, as well.

I think the Bolt and the LEAF are great options too, provided you live in an area that has proper CCS coverage, or you only plan to use them as commuter cars. Unfortunately, for potential Bolt customers, GM is only going to make around 30k/yr...

 

[Rob Croson]

I think the Bolt and the LEAF are great options too, provided you live in an area that has proper CCS coverage, or you only plan to use them as commuter cars. Unfortunately, for potential Bolt customers, GM is only going to make around 30k/yr...

If demand goes up, then so will production. GM could easily increase Bolt production, but at the expense of Sonic production, due to the way they manufacture them. The big reason GM is not doing this is because they are not selling them any faster. You can still walk into Chevy dealers across the country and drive out with a brand new Bolt the same day. There are many reasons for this, but the most common assertion is that Chevy sucks at selling EVs, and is not really trying.

They will also sell New Inventory Model 3's eventually...as they are already producing some to put in stores.

If I was a reservation holder who already put down my $1,000 many moons ago, this would piss me off.

 

[johnsnownw]

GM has stated that maximum capacity is 50k Bolts a year, but I agree they can't sell that many...at least the way they're going about it.

If I was a reservation holder who already put down my $1,000 many moons ago, this would piss me off.

I am a first day pre-reveal reservation holder, and it's totally fine. Most people want to sit in the vehicle, or drive it, before they commit, which I think is reasonable.

A lot of these people are going to want to order exactly what they want, so won't be irritated by it. It won't meaningfully change the timeline for when they get their vehicle. There aren't that many stores, really...heck you can't even buy a Tesla in certain states.

 

[RSchneider]

H2 is a complete dead end. H2 costs more than gasoline, and it always will. It's extremely energy intensive to produce in a "green" manner, or in any other manner for that matter.

If you read the article, this is about China and not the US. I really encourage all of you to take a trip to China and get a wake up call. They don't do everything just because of the US market and what we want here. For the US, we only need ICE and everything else is a waste. That's because the ones with the buying power here only care about today and will be dead in 50 years with probably a good 30 years of car buying power left. After that, the US will be like all of the 3rd world countries where they rely on ICE. Think about it, who cares about the next generation. All we need are to create jobs today, take new technology and reject it because it doesn't fit into our way of life. There's nothing wrong about that and for me, I want it to stay it the same because I will never live long enough to suffer the repercussions.

 

[johnsnownw]

If you read the article, this is about China and not the US. I really encourage all of you to take a trip to China and get a wake up call. They don't do everything just because of the US market and what we want here. For the US, we only need ICE and everything else is a waste. That's because the ones with the buying power here only care about today and will be dead in 50 years with probably a good 30 years of car buying power left. After that, the US will be like all of the 3rd world countries where they rely on ICE. Think about it, who cares about the next generation. All we need are to create jobs today, take new technology and reject it because it doesn't fit into our way of life. There's nothing wrong about that and for me, I want it to stay it the same because I will never live long enough to suffer the repercussions.

Physics works the same way in both countries. NREL and the DOE have poured money into analyzing best case scenarios for FCEVs or a hydrogen economy. Any workable model requires technological breakthroughs, and mass adoption...even then it's still speculative that they can even match the cost of gas prices...and has never included taxes in the analysis.

If you're talking about China, they currently have over 200k BEV buses, and lead the world in EV sales.

I do not agree with spending huge amounts of taxpayer funding on an immature technology that currently has no chance of being cost competitive for more than a decade, if then. As I said, FCEVs may work, H2 does not. There are other fuels that FCs can use that are more environmentally friendly than petrol, and MUCH cheaper than H2...without requiring pressurized gases.

 

[RSchneider]

I do not agree with spending huge amounts of taxpayer funding on an immature technology that currently has no chance of being cost competitive for more than a decade, if then. As I said, FCEVs may work, H2 does not. There are other fuels that FCs can use that are more environmentally friendly than petrol, and MUCH cheaper than H2...without requiring pressurized gases.

I suggest that since you live in China, you need to take this up with them. As for here in the US, we don't have to worry about that. Only ones spending money on alternative energy has been shifted to the private sector which ends up being the private sector for non US corporations. Best thing is, we are safe here in the US as ICE is king.