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Arcimoto

R

Rickb

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Every vehicle ages, has to be properly operated/maintained, and eventually wears out to include I.C.E. vehicle component parts. Battery degradation has too many variables that make it complicated to discuss in the Arcimoto thread. If you are making general assumptions regarding EV battery life, research the company’s specific battery and EV model of interest. What’s it cost to rebuild an engine or transmission these days? Also, important to compare the total cost to operate the vehicles over their lifetime.
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AriLea

AriLea

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mkiker2089 said:
Enlighten me then, what do you disagree with. Batteries do age. They have a long but not infinite life. Or are you just trolling
Click to expand...
There are strong opinions all around this subject. We can only gloss over the facts for everyone.

Upfront and by way of admission, the consumer mind is not currently up to considering what I'm going to say below.

Frankly, It's possible to get quite few years out of a pack. ICE Engines don't last that well either given the poor maintenance people give them. Even at the best level, an engine has limited life. Packs also last a lot better if treated gingerly. But as to all the other electrical in an EV, no ICE drive can compare to that(apples-to-oranges-comparison). The ICE drive chemicals and heat erodes electrical systems.

So your mileage may vary in both cases, EV or ICE. Never take your EV below 75% full charge and you may outlast your ICE powered car. I find it really hard that the replacement sales aren't considered more strongly. And consider, future replacement tech may well be cheaper, and so more attractive.

When an ICE drive gets old pretty much the rest of car is not worth the effort, usually the tranny, a pricey item, is shot too, as well as the upholstery. An ICE drive is sized and structured very custom to the rest of the car, you aren't going to upgrade it. Emissions issues also limit options.

The expectation around car aging allowed the automatic tranny to be engineered for that life span. And in the past, old vs new cars were a lot different from a structural engineering standpoint, substantially losing weight each sales cycle. Style changes played into the cycle as well. So the whole gambit is replaced every 5 to 10 years by expectation if nothing else.

And speaking of expectation, then there is the worry. Are you sure that old engine won't suddenly die? ! new car time !.

An EV -CAN- last as long as ICE, when treated well. Also, if the electrics are done right, there is no technology with the expectation of sudden death with age. Typically, for now, the electric drives have transmission technology that either lasts longer or is a low bar for refurbishing. A full rebuild for many electric motors involves the a replacement of a two dollar bearing. Much the same for their transmissions. They don't even require clutches, or have reduced wear factors when they do.

Given a shift to pure EV, I'm expecting the cycle length between new cars sales to adjust. It's one of the biggest scares to the auto industry. They don't like the longer sales cycle that an electric with upgrade-able packs represent and will do everything in their power to avoid it, even to the point of making sure pack shapes, structures and interfaces change so older cars can't just get new OEM packs and go on, and on, and on. Thank god for after-market suppliers.

It is widely suggested that the GM - EV1 was killed over that issue. And that Tesla looked at their mistakes, and estimated the situation very differently, in fact were inspired by the lost opportunities it exposed. GM's retreat (and that documentary) definitely contributed to the development of the movement.

SOooo that's the undercover proxy war between EV consumers and manufacturers, the price and longevity of battery tech. In a future EV market the biggest subjects powering a sales cycle will be 3, the battery-tek, the style trends(as always) and the comfort accessories. So in this new world a renovated EV with upgrades could become a popular option. At least this is my hope.

Now IF(big IF) manufacturers view the main product line AS the battery, everything changes. They then view the upgrade-able car as their leverage for future customers, and they might WANT the vehicle to last longer. Notice how Tesla invested in battery manufacturing?

Anyway, two things I can assert, the EV drive makes all kinds of changes in the industry possible, and that has 'makers' very nervous about what that means. How do you plan for what you can't estimate?

I estimate Elio Motors is not entrenched or invested in old style thinking. If they get an electric drive option at some point, they will adjust to all this, I would think.
 
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Ty

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AriLea said:
There are strong opinions all around this subject. We can only gloss over the facts for everyone.

Upfront and by way of admission, the consumer mind is not currently up to considering what I'm going to say below.

Frankly, It's possible to get quite few years out of a pack. ICE Engines don't last that well either given the poor maintenance people give them. Even at the best level, an engine has limited life. Packs also last a lot better if treated gingerly. But as to all the other electrical in an EV, no ICE drive can compare to that(apples-to-oranges-comparison). The ICE drive chemicals and heat erodes electrical systems.

So your mileage may vary in both cases, EV or ICE. Never take your EV below 75% full charge and you may outlast your ICE powered car. I find it really hard that the replacement sales aren't considered more strongly. And consider, future replacement tech may well be cheaper, and so more attractive.

When an ICE drive gets old pretty much the rest of car is not worth the effort, usually the tranny, a pricey item, is shot too, as well as the upholstery. An ICE drive is sized and structured very custom to the rest of the car, you aren't going to upgrade it. Emissions issues also limit options.

The expectation around car aging allowed the automatic tranny to be engineered for that life span. And in the past, old vs new cars were a lot different from a structural engineering standpoint, substantially losing weight each sales cycle. Style changes played into the cycle as well. So the whole gambit is replaced every 5 to 10 years by expectation if nothing else.

And speaking of expectation, then there is the worry. Are you sure that old engine won't suddenly die? ! new car time !.

An EV -CAN- last as long as ICE, when treated well. Also, if the electrics are done right, there is no technology with the expectation of sudden death with age. Typically, for now, the electric drives have transmission technology that either lasts longer or is a low bar for refurbishing. A full rebuild for many electric motors involves the a replacement of a two dollar bearing. Much the same for their transmissions. They don't even require clutches, or have reduced wear factors when they do.

Given a shift to pure EV, I'm expecting the cycle length between new cars sales to adjust. It's one of the biggest scares to the auto industry. They don't like the longer sales cycle that an electric with upgrade-able packs represent and will do everything in their power to avoid it, even to the point of making sure pack shapes, structures and interfaces change so older cars can't just get new OEM packs and go on, and on, and on. Thank god for after-market suppliers.

It is widely suggested that the GM - EV1 was killed over that issue. And that Tesla looked at their mistakes, and estimated the situation very differently, in fact were inspired by the lost opportunities it exposed.

SOooo that's the undercover proxy war between EV consumers and manufacturers, the price and longevity of battery tech. In a future EV market the biggest subjects powering a sales cycle will be 3, the battery-tek, the style trends(as always) and the comfort accessories. So in this new world a renovated EV with upgrades could become a popular option. At least this is my hope.

Now IF(big IF) manufacturers view the main product line AS the battery, everything changes. They then view the upgrade-able car as their leverage for future customers, and they might WANT the vehicle to last longer. Notice how Tesla invested in battery manufacturing?

Anyway, two things I can assert, the EV drive makes all kinds of changes in the industry possible, and that has 'makers' very nervous about what that means. How do you plan for what you can't estimate?

I estimate Elio Motors is not entrenched or invested in old style thinking. If they get an electric drive option at some point, they will adjust to all this, I would think.
Click to expand...

This is the battery skateboard model. You pay for the drivetrain and battery which is basically the floor of the vehicle. You would then buy a shell to fit that skate... say, a low-slung sedan for the best aerodynamic look. Oh, wait, you need a truck this weekend to go camping. You run down to the dealer with your car and have them fit a truck shell to it for the weekend as a rental. When the weekend is done, you go back and have the truck removed and your sedan body put back on.
 
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