JNR
Elio Addict
At least one of my predictions may come true.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news...-vehicle-code-to-prevent-3-wheelers-like-elio
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Is This Ruling Going To Effect Elio Since They Are Following The Telsa Sales Model.
- Thread starter Double D in Ohio
- Start date
At least one of my predictions may come true.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news...-vehicle-code-to-prevent-3-wheelers-like-elio
floydv
Elio Addict
When I first clicked the link in the article, I got what looked like a summary page describing the proposal and using some of the language the writer used in the article. But I could find no reference to that proposed rulemaking anywhere on the Internet. A few minutes later (now), I clicked on his link again and that link to the NHTSA summary page is dead. Something smells fishy about this, I call BS.
Rob Croson
Elio Addict
Sethodine
Elio Addict
I can't figure out how to find more details on this. Is this just saying there will be a future meeting on the subject, or have specific rules already been proposed?
It seems to be simply a statement of a percieved problem, without proposing any particular solution. The problem is, they worry people will assume a 3-wheeler with "car-like" features will meet the same safety standards as true cars. All they are proposing right now is to remove those vehicles from the "motorcycle" definition, but they haven't proposed what to do with those vehicles once they are no longer motorcycles.
I see this going one of two ways: either they will require autocycles to be classified as cars (and thus meet the regulatory and safety hurdles of real cars), OR they will create a sperate autocycle classification.
I see the former being more likely than the latter, since the percieved problem is that the general public will see vehicles like Elio as a car. However, I suppose they might make an Autocycle classification that has similar safety requirements to cars, but is more like motorcycles in other regulatory areas.
But if they become Cars, then EM will qualify for CAFE
It seems to be simply a statement of a percieved problem, without proposing any particular solution. The problem is, they worry people will assume a 3-wheeler with "car-like" features will meet the same safety standards as true cars. All they are proposing right now is to remove those vehicles from the "motorcycle" definition, but they haven't proposed what to do with those vehicles once they are no longer motorcycles.
I see this going one of two ways: either they will require autocycles to be classified as cars (and thus meet the regulatory and safety hurdles of real cars), OR they will create a sperate autocycle classification.
I see the former being more likely than the latter, since the percieved problem is that the general public will see vehicles like Elio as a car. However, I suppose they might make an Autocycle classification that has similar safety requirements to cars, but is more like motorcycles in other regulatory areas.
But if they become Cars, then EM will qualify for CAFE
WilliamH
Elio Addict
Just another bureaucratic organization trying to usurp the powers and prerogatives of Congress.
Congress is the organization that defines "less than four wheeled vehicles" as motorcycles.
Congress is the organization that defines "less than four wheeled vehicles" as motorcycles.
Rob Croson
Elio Addict
A quick search on the RIN number provided on that page leads you to here:
http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=DOT-OST-2015-0240-0001
From there you can download the DOT's "Department Regulatory Agenda; Semiannual Summary" from November 15, 2015. All it has is a copy of the same blurb you can get from the reginfo.gov site.
I think you're correct that it will not prevent three-wheel vehicles. It will, however, have a lot of effect on the Elio, should it be enacted prior to production. First thing that comes to mind: bumpers. As a motorcycle, it doesn't have to have them. As a car, it does. That would require a redesign of the front and back of the vehicle to incorporate federally mandated bumpers. How are they going to protect the outriggers? Anyone remember the original Prowler concept car? It didn't have a bumper in front. To meet federal regulations they had to add that bumper bar across the front for the production models. And of course they will need to add a front license plate. Those two things will do a number on their aerodynamics. Does the headlight and running light placement meet passenger car standards?
And while EM says they will do crash testing of the Elio, will they be doing the full suite of testing required by federal regulations? And are they planning on doing it in the manner required by those regulations? Can they even do the testing as required? I think someone was pointing out some design limitations of the Elio that mean they simply cannot do crash testing
And are they planning on filing all the requisite government paperwork? And are they planning on doing all the requisite fuel economy testing and emissions testing required for passenger vehicles? And what about filing all the appropriate paperwork for all of that? Doing all the paperwork to comply with federal regulations relating to a product can often be more expensive than building the product to begin with.
People aren't creating all these three-wheel vehicles just because they're cool, and it will magically enable some miracle efficiency. They're doing it to get around all the federal regulations associated with four-wheeled passenger vehicles. And if the feds pass laws that makes these three-wheeled vehicles meet all the same regulations as standard passenger cars, you can just kiss your $6,800, 84 MPG Elio goodbye.
Some of you people are too quick to poo-poo the impact this proposed legislation would have on EM, should it ever come to pass. Stop and think about it for a few seconds before scoffing at it. Will this proposal lead to changes in the regulations? I have no idea. If it does, it will probably take a few years for them argue it out, and that gives EM and other companies a window to get theirs to market before it goes into effect.
The bright side of this is what Sethodine says: CAFE credits! Provided that meeting passenger car regulations doesn't kill the fuel economy, they may be able to make a killing with that. Give them darn things away just so they can sell the CAFE credits. That would be one hell of a business model.
http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=DOT-OST-2015-0240-0001
From there you can download the DOT's "Department Regulatory Agenda; Semiannual Summary" from November 15, 2015. All it has is a copy of the same blurb you can get from the reginfo.gov site.
I think you're correct that it will not prevent three-wheel vehicles. It will, however, have a lot of effect on the Elio, should it be enacted prior to production. First thing that comes to mind: bumpers. As a motorcycle, it doesn't have to have them. As a car, it does. That would require a redesign of the front and back of the vehicle to incorporate federally mandated bumpers. How are they going to protect the outriggers? Anyone remember the original Prowler concept car? It didn't have a bumper in front. To meet federal regulations they had to add that bumper bar across the front for the production models. And of course they will need to add a front license plate. Those two things will do a number on their aerodynamics. Does the headlight and running light placement meet passenger car standards?
And while EM says they will do crash testing of the Elio, will they be doing the full suite of testing required by federal regulations? And are they planning on doing it in the manner required by those regulations? Can they even do the testing as required? I think someone was pointing out some design limitations of the Elio that mean they simply cannot do crash testing
And are they planning on filing all the requisite government paperwork? And are they planning on doing all the requisite fuel economy testing and emissions testing required for passenger vehicles? And what about filing all the appropriate paperwork for all of that? Doing all the paperwork to comply with federal regulations relating to a product can often be more expensive than building the product to begin with.
People aren't creating all these three-wheel vehicles just because they're cool, and it will magically enable some miracle efficiency. They're doing it to get around all the federal regulations associated with four-wheeled passenger vehicles. And if the feds pass laws that makes these three-wheeled vehicles meet all the same regulations as standard passenger cars, you can just kiss your $6,800, 84 MPG Elio goodbye.
Some of you people are too quick to poo-poo the impact this proposed legislation would have on EM, should it ever come to pass. Stop and think about it for a few seconds before scoffing at it. Will this proposal lead to changes in the regulations? I have no idea. If it does, it will probably take a few years for them argue it out, and that gives EM and other companies a window to get theirs to market before it goes into effect.
The bright side of this is what Sethodine says: CAFE credits! Provided that meeting passenger car regulations doesn't kill the fuel economy, they may be able to make a killing with that. Give them darn things away just so they can sell the CAFE credits. That would be one hell of a business model.
RUCRAYZE
Elio Addict
there as always been that gray area between motorcycle and car (safety). I recall 5 Star safety ratings touted as a sales pitch(?), We know that it couldn't be accomplished by current automotive standards, so I believe moving back and forth between M.C. and car, gives E M wiggle room, i.e. it's a motorcycle to ride in HOV w/o passenger,registration as a M.C. for insurance, it's not a motorcycle no helmet restrictions. There are, what appears and assumed to be safe 5 star rated cars, many well named and assumed very safe, and there are more than one testing standard, - and if anyone is dreaming to own this for a safe "car" , best look elsewhere
Getting off motorcycles and into my Elio, will make me feel safer, however to change my super defensive bike riding will not be relaxed in my E
Getting off motorcycles and into my Elio, will make me feel safer, however to change my super defensive bike riding will not be relaxed in my E
John Painter
Elio Addict
What are your thoughts on the proposed NHTSA rule change to exclude certain three wheel vehicles form Title 49 motorcycle definition. Is it good for EM?
http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=201510&RIN=2127-AL15
RIN Data
DOT/NHTSA RIN: 2127-AL15 Publication ID: Fall 2015
Title: Amend Definition of 3-Wheeled Vehicles
Abstract:
This rulemaking would change the regulatory definition of motorcycle to exclude three-wheeled vehicles that are configured like passenger cars. Under the existing regulatory definition of motorcycle in part 571.3, three-wheeled motor vehicles are classified as motorcycles. This is appropriate for motorcycles with sidecars, trikes, and other three-wheeled vehicles that are based on a motorcycle-like configuration. However, other three-wheeled vehicles have passenger-car characteristics such as fully enclosed cabins, hinged doors with roll-up windows, steering wheels, and side-by-side seating. Because these car-like vehicles ride on three wheels instead of four, they are not required to meet federal safety standards for passenger cars (although they are subject to motorcycle safety standards.) Various car-like three-wheeled vehicle models have been imported into the U.S. and have been available for sale to the public. NHTSA believes consumers who purchase these vehicles are likely to assume that these vehicles have the same safety features and crash protection as passenger cars certified to Federal safety standards.
Agency: Department of Transportation(DOT) Priority: Substantive, Nonsignificant
RIN Status: Previously published in the Unified Agenda Agenda Stage of Rulemaking: Proposed Rule Stage
Major: No Unfunded Mandates: No
CFR Citation: 202 366-4931
Email: mike.pyne@dot.gov
http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=201510&RIN=2127-AL15
RIN Data
DOT/NHTSA RIN: 2127-AL15 Publication ID: Fall 2015
Title: Amend Definition of 3-Wheeled Vehicles
Abstract:
This rulemaking would change the regulatory definition of motorcycle to exclude three-wheeled vehicles that are configured like passenger cars. Under the existing regulatory definition of motorcycle in part 571.3, three-wheeled motor vehicles are classified as motorcycles. This is appropriate for motorcycles with sidecars, trikes, and other three-wheeled vehicles that are based on a motorcycle-like configuration. However, other three-wheeled vehicles have passenger-car characteristics such as fully enclosed cabins, hinged doors with roll-up windows, steering wheels, and side-by-side seating. Because these car-like vehicles ride on three wheels instead of four, they are not required to meet federal safety standards for passenger cars (although they are subject to motorcycle safety standards.) Various car-like three-wheeled vehicle models have been imported into the U.S. and have been available for sale to the public. NHTSA believes consumers who purchase these vehicles are likely to assume that these vehicles have the same safety features and crash protection as passenger cars certified to Federal safety standards.
Agency: Department of Transportation(DOT) Priority: Substantive, Nonsignificant
RIN Status: Previously published in the Unified Agenda Agenda Stage of Rulemaking: Proposed Rule Stage
Major: No Unfunded Mandates: No
CFR Citation: 202 366-4931
Email: mike.pyne@dot.gov
John Painter
Elio Addict
This will have a major impact for Elio Motors.
This is the big shit.
But it all depends on how the lobbyists and Congress inject their "stuff" into the proposed rule language. It could kill EM or make them the gold standard. I bet there will be all kinds of juicy stuff happening over the next several months, almost better than the playoffs.