Space In The Hood

[Maurtis]

Although I do recall Paul sticking his head out the rear

I need to put this picture on a t-shirt, it always makes me chuckle...

 

[Ty]

Link or BS

He's right. I remember reading that RedDot said ... Oh, it was in that last interview! He said that Red Dot was having to design the inside portion without the luxury of having all the dash space that a full width car had. He didn't say they were "unhappy" nor were they talking about the width of the engine compartment. Because, seriously, Elio has had the compressor installed on all of it's engines already. There isn't much else to plumb under there. (dryer, maybe).

 

[Ty]

I hope the guys at RedDot don't have the same mindset!!!
If so the ELIO, as it relates to the comfort of the rear passenger is going to get BAD reviews.
It's bad enough enough rear passenger is TRAPPED behind the driver and can't see the roadway, in a space that has NO EXIT door...
(If driver is incapacitated in a wreck, rear passenger is TRAPPED big time...)

So far as cost, ELIO should already planned for such due to tandem seating arrangement, and reasons noted above.

Regardless to the delays it might cause HVAC system should have been fleshed out and tested before gearing up to make the chassis in steel.

Hope RedDot can get it worked out.

I've seen the ELio with 2 vents in a very narrow area... In fact, including all the fancier cars with all the vents, I'd be willing to bet the Elio has more vents per cubic foot of cabin space than almost ALL cars. In fact, I'll bet the Elio AC changes out the cab area air at a higher rate than anything else on the road. Rear vents won't be required or missed.

 

[Ty]

Ok the driver is "incapacitated" as in knocked out, or D-E-A-D, how is rear seat passenger getting out?

Are rear windows the type that open, or are they fixed (Glued in).
For safety reasons, opening rear windows should be STANDARD as they can in a accident be pushed/pryed open/removed.

Q: Are rear opening windows standard?
Q: Is there enough room for a adult, to fold down rear seat so they could exit via the hatch?

The rear are fixed but they've talked about "vent windows". They'd be too small to get out of even if they opened. The hatch is only 12 inches wide. Anyone small enough to fit through it is probably not going to be able to get out of their infant seat anyway!

In an accident, the passenger will have to pull the driver's seat lever, push it forward, and open the door. In the event that door can't open, well, maybe a can opener?

 

[Ty]

While the idea of pop-out rear windows is interesting, I would vote against it, for several reasons.

First: The Elio is not intended to routinely carry two people. It is first and foremost a single-passenger commuter that just happens to have a rear seat in case it is needed. It is not a carpool or family vehicle. Adding $20-30 worth of time and materials, even assuming you could do it for that little, for a feature that only a very few would ever really need, goes against the whole idea of the Elio. Give people the minimum that they need to get the job done. Everything else is an added-cost, a la carte option. This is an "only the essentials" budget vehicle, not a luxury long-distance cruiser.

Second: Have you seen how small those windows are? A normal adult probably couldn't squeeze through one. It would only be good for a child or very small adult. That picture of Paul sticking out the back hatch shows a tight squeeze. Paul's not exactly a big guy, and those side windows are both smaller, and triangular.

Third: Removed by passers-by? How easily do you imagine that these would be removed? If they could be removed that easily to gain access to the vehicle, they'd be a big security risk, and I wouldn't want them anyway. It's already easy enough for someone to break into a car, no reason to give the casual thief another easy way to get into my car that is not immediately visible.

Fourth: If the car is wrecked and they need to get someone out, rescue crews are VERY WELL equipped to deal with the situation. They will cut that car apart like it was made from rotten twigs. And they do it fast. I've seen live demos of those cutters where they chopped a car into itty bitty pieces. Yanking someone out through a tiny side window could be dangerous if the person has suffered injuries.

IMNSHO, this whole thing about opening rear windows and using them as an escape hatch is a manufactured crisis with no basis in reality. A tempest in a teapot. They could offer it as an option for anyone who really wants it, and those people could pay the price, if they thought it was really worth paying. I know I would almost certainly not buy it.

I'd like them but just for venting... sometimes, even with both windows open in a car, you get that thumping from the air pressure. Opening a rear window even a crack can stop that.

 

[Build it RIGHT!]

(Build it RIGHT !) He's right. I remember reading that RedDot said ... Oh, it was in that last interview! He said that Red Dot was having to design the inside portion without the luxury of having all the dash space that a full width car had. He didn't say they were "unhappy" nor were they talking about the width of the engine compartment. Because, seriously, Elio has had the compressor installed on all of it's engines already. There isn't much else to plumb under there. (dryer, maybe).

Thank you for your post to the "link or BS" poster, couldn't remember where I read it.

*"Unhappy" was a bad choice of words.. Point I was trying to relay was that RedDOT which is designing the HAVC system was having very limited space to work with... which isn't a good thing on several levels.

1: NOISE: Since the cabin of the ELIO is smaller than most.. Keeping air-speed down is paramount.
How do you keep noise levels down? Well you don't force air down dinky little pipes that have to twist and turn in a "limited amount of space".
You want duckwork sized "big" enough and routed in a way air speed is low, so noise is reduced as much as possible.

2: Limited space usually translates into higher servicing cost. Yea, we made it fit but it's going to cost MORE to have it worked on.

Quick who here has worked on cars PROFESSIONALLY? It's no fun to work on something in which the "engineers" have packed things in tightly. Most of this "packing" being done with little thought on servicing those items later btw people.
(Yea PE is a super engineer, he'd never do that or let it happen, he's promised to make the ELIO easy to service.. which can mean it's easy to change the oil and air filter.. you know the "common" things.. We will see if the whole thing is "easy" to work on. )

3: Total, or Long term Ownership Costs:
Fun-fact= The more pain in the butt it is to work on something the more it's going to cost to pay someone to fix it.. So yea pack it in there.

Me thinks that "Engineers" need to be forced to work on the cars they design in the real world in which during the winter time it's so cold when you grab a wrench it pulls the skin off your hands, and in the summer you're drenched in sweat with it running down your butt crack, the engine compartment is downright nasty... they pack stuff in pretty tight with little regard to serviceability more so than not.


*********

In regards to making the engine compartment or chassis itself slightly wider.. it's always better to have MORE vs LESS SPACE... (Turbo anyone?. Paul Elio was saying somewhere he was being told the turbo

One last thing
Besides day to day maintenance having more space around things increases the LIFE SPAN OF THE COMPONENTS...

*********************
*"Unhappy" was a bad choice of words in regard to RedDOT HAVC designer. I bet whoever got the job was probably overjoyed in being assigned the project and the guys doing the install and tweeking are probably overjoyed as well working in a limited amount of space.

.

 

[Build it RIGHT!]

I'd like them but just for venting... sometimes, even with both windows open in a car, you get that thumping from the air pressure. Opening a rear window even a crack can stop that.

Yep, Aka Wind Buffeting. Having rear opening windows on all my cars has come in handy over the years. Well worth the cost.

 

[Build it RIGHT!]

He's right. I remember reading that RedDot said ... Oh, it was in that last interview! He said that Red Dot was having to design the inside portion without the luxury of having all the dash space that a full width car had. He didn't say they were "unhappy" nor were they talking about the width of the engine compartment. Because, seriously, Elio has had the compressor installed on all of it's engines already. There isn't much else to plumb under there. (dryer, maybe).

How about with a TURBO with stage 3 inter-cooler and piping?

 

[Build it RIGHT!]

After the picture was taken Paul Elio was overheard saying...

It looked much bigger on my computer screen !
Should have made the chassis a couple of inches wider, keeping the nose about same frontal area but bowing it out slightly, maybe 4-6 inches with the widest point being where engine sits, then around A-pillar start tapering it in slightly, but at the same time not decreasing the width too much so at the rear the "trunk" would be wider...

He was hear walking down the hallway saying to himself
Just remembered pizzas the kind my wife likes around 16 inches.. about 17 inches wide in the box... What was I thinking making the trunk only 14 inches wide!

.

 

[Build it RIGHT!]

While the idea of pop-out rear windows is interesting, I would vote against it, for several reasons.

First: The Elio is not intended to routinely carry two people. It is first and foremost a single-passenger commuter that just happens to have a rear seat in case it is needed. It is not a carpool or family vehicle. Adding $20-30 worth of time and materials, even assuming you could do it for that little, for a feature that only a very few would ever really need, goes against the whole idea of the Elio. Give people the minimum that they need to get the job done. Everything else is an added-cost, a la carte option. This is an "only the essentials" budget vehicle, not a luxury long-distance cruiser.

Upon arriving at their destination Rob's best friend of 30+ years after exiting the ELIO said...
Hey I'm either driving back or catching a cab...

Man it sure is TIGHT back there, sure would feel better if I could open those windows!
I have no control over anything, opening those windows would really help me feel less claustrophobic.

Second: Have you seen how small those windows are? A normal adult probably couldn't squeeze through one. It would only be good for a child or very small adult. That picture of Paul sticking out the back hatch shows a tight squeeze. Paul's not exactly a big guy, and those side windows are both smaller, and triangular.

So you're saying children would fit thru rear windows?
All the MORE reason to make pop-out rear windows STANDARD equipment.

Third: Removed by passers-by? How easily do you imagine that these would be removed? If they could be removed that easily to gain access to the vehicle, they'd be a big security risk, and I wouldn't want them anyway. It's already easy enough for someone to break into a car, no reason to give the casual thief another easy way to get into my car that is not immediately visible.

Average man could probably do it.
If not..
Ever heard of ADRENALINE?
When people get excited they are stronger than they normally are. Then there is the crowd thing upon seeing a child trapped in the back.

So far as a security risk to thieves, if they want in they'll get in and since there there would be physical evidence the vehicle was broken into so insurance would pay.
PS: I've had pop-out rear opening windows on ALL my vehicles for many years. Typically thieves bust in drivers/ passenger window... They want to get in and out quick... and once window is busted- they want to go thru a DOOR...

They for sure aren't going thru a *child sized window.
*There may be exceptions.

Fourth: If the car is wrecked and they need to get someone out, rescue crews are VERY WELL equipped to deal with the situation. They will cut that car apart like it was made from rotten twigs. And they do it fast. I've seen live demos of those cutters where they chopped a car into itty bitty pieces. Yanking someone out through a tiny side window could be dangerous if the person has suffered injuries.
~snip~t.

True that they are equipped but, as they say :

When SECONDS COUNT, the POLICE (And rescue crews) are just MINUTES away.

(Some really LONG minutes depending on where you live, and the rescue departments workload).

*Regarding yanking someone out that's been injured.. that's a good policy but scenario may warrant quick extraction. IE ELIO has gone in the river/lake with child in back seat, fire, etc.

.

IMNSHO, this whole thing about opening rear windows and using them as an escape hatch is a manufactured crisis with no basis in reality. A tempest in a teapot. They could offer it as an option for anyone who really wants it, and those people could pay the price, if they thought it was really worth paying. I know I would almost certainly not buy it.

They have to be STANDARD as people will be transporting CHILDREN.

While you may not desire such and say "Hey people with kids can order rear opening windows, I don't want them.".. It will just be a short time until ELIO's are hitting the USED (CAR) MARKET and there will be people, as example people that have been DIVORCED buying ELIO's that the ELIO is there only car that will be hauling young children around. Not everyone will be buying this as a "And" form of transportation.

To conclude this:
All those against pop-out rear opening windows that give (2) additional exit points need to realize The ELIO is fighting a uphill battle in the general public's mind for being dinky, and having (3) wheels and (1) door to begin with.

All it will take is (1) (Well maybe a couple) news story(s) about a kid that's been trapped in a ELIO.. and the MOMS and safety nuts will be laying down the law, "AutoCycle" or not. There will be tons of negative press due to the TANDEM seating arrangement in the ELIO in which driver being incapacitated blocks exit from the vehicle and having a trunk so narrow (14 inches LOL).
(Trunk should be 18 inches wide... 16 inch pizza is what 17 inches in the box?.. Lawyers and the media will talking about that if someone gets trapped in the back.)

PS: Most moms are smart enough to realize a TANDEM seating arrangement could (and will) be resulting in persons, or children being trapped in the back.


BTW: Besides the court of public opinion coming down hard on the ELIO which might put ELIO MOTORS out of business I can see LAWYERS and the NEWS MEDIA having a field day with this if ELIO MOTORS makes them optional, vs them being STANDARD.
Making them STANDARD shows that ELIO MOTORS was smart enough to foresee people being trapped in the back and made EVERY effort to keep that from happening.

14 inch wide trunk... Really? I guess it's true engineers have *no common sense. That needs to be changed before production begins.
http://elioowners.com/threads/space-in-the-hood.7836/page-9#post-167400

*I have a friend that's a engineer that has no common sense.


One last thought:
We that like the ELIO are blinded to this, and addicted to the low price and want to keep the price as low as possible (Some saying I'm not paying 1 cent more)

The public, the media and the courts won't be blinded., they aren't in love with the ELIO and they won't be swayed by the excuse.. "HEY it added $40 to the PRICE!!!!"
The see a dinky weird little car with (1) door, nothing more.

****************************
Things other posters have said:
Use a rock, just bust window out!.
Well rocks can't be found sometimes...
Additionally busting a window IN is far more traumatic to a child than ripping the window OUT.
One last thing:
*Ripping window OFF, vs busting it out with a rock should keep those pesky clunks of safety glass from getting in the kids EYE, or a piece ending up in their MOUTH