Elio Electronics?

[Jeff Bowlsby]

Simplicity is one big thing that attracts me to the Elio. How much electronics, how many computers and sensors does the Elio have? A minimum number I hope. If the Elio Requires a certain sensor, computer or other gizmo that becomes obsolete, then the Elio will not survive.

Everything I have ever owned that has electronics in it somehow breaks down too soon, becomes obsolete or is expensive to fix. All of the above. My $5K digital piano lasted about 10 years. My $5K 25 year old acoustic piano has decades more life left in it. The trend in new vehicles seems to lead them to be more complex - more computers for everything, more wires, more fuses more sensors = more things to go wrong. Makes me sick thinking about it. I know there are reasons - fuel injection is an emissions thing, and airbags are a safety thing and both need computers. But side windows don't need that complexity and I hope EM is making every valiant attempt to simplify and justify that with reduced costs to produce and maintain.

My 1974 car has 12 fuses, 5-6 relays, manual window winders, and a manual transmission. The electronic fuel injection has the cars only computer (ECU) and the system is simple and easy to maintain. A simple, basic car really and can personally diagnose and maintain anything on it.

My 1981 car has about 40 fuses, 30 relays and more switches, knobs and sensors than I can count. I have a side window (electric) that I have not been able to fix, so it stays rolled down, for about a year now. An EE or specialized dealership test equipment is needed to diagnose and ID which computer or sensor has gone bad so mere mortal shadetree mechanics will never be able to keep these complex cars alive very long. They will simply be discarded. That is not good economy.

I hope the Elio stays very simple mechanically and electrically - true to a heritage of sustainability - for the long term economy in keeping them roadworthy - which will have a lot to to do with whether or not the marque survives.

 

[Gas-Powered Awesome]

To the overwhelming majority of Americans, cars are disposable appliances they use just to get to where they need to go. They don't know and they don't care how it works, and want to perform as little maintenance as possible. They want a shiny new one every few years. Automakers, including Elio if they are smart, make cars for them, not for you. Automakers' only job, only obligation as publicly-held, for-profit companies is "deliver shareholder value" aka make money. They don't make money off of you.

Solid-state electronics are far more reliable than mechanical devices, but in reality only have to be reliable for the length of the first buyer's ownership or the length of the warranty, whichever is longer. First buyers are the only buyers that matter to car companies for obvious reasons. The average length of new car ownership is 6.5 years. A new car only has to be reliable to some value (4-sigma?) beyond 6.5 years to give 99.9% of the only buyers that matter - first buyers - a car that will be highly reliable.

Second, third, fourth owners and beyond bring little to no money to a car maker and only in the form of parts. Sure, those later buyers might become first buyers down the road so there is little incentive to intentionally build-in planned obsolescence. But the automaker has to strike a balance between reliability and cost. They will choose a cheaper part if they can.

Now that we've established that Elio's focus is on making money by selling appliances:
Elio is going take advantage of the technology to minimize costs and maximize profits, and thus will be as loaded with computers and sensors as any other modern vehicle.
The computers I can think of:
1. ECU/ECM - Engine Control Unit/Module.
2. PCM - Powertrain Control Module for the automanual transmission. Likely NOT integrated with ECU/ECM.
3. Air Bag computer - Always separate from all other computers for reliability/survivability.
4. ABS - Anti-lock Braking System computer.
5. DSC/TCS - Dynamic Stability Control/Traction Control System. Likely this and ABS are one integrated computer.
6. Stereo - All computerized now.
7. Instrument Panel - I think I read this will be a CANbus vehicle, so IP will be a networked computer.
8. Cruise Control - May be integrated with ECU/ECM.
9. IPM - Integrated Power Module - Central control computer for all electricity control and distribution. Headlights, tail lights, brake lights, dome lights, horn, power windows, etc. If it runs on electricity, it goes through this module. I don't know if Elio will go this route. Most cars build in the last 5-10 years do.
10. CANbus receivers - Dozens. The newest cars ditch the IPM and just daisy-chain power wires and network wires to every electric device. At each device, like a power window motor, a computer listens to the CANbus for the command to open or close the window. The power window switch is just a computer that puts the commands on the network bus. This saves tremendous cost since, for example, the driver's door just requires two current-carrying and two wispy network wires instead of a dozen or more current-carrying wires that the old direct-wire or IPM systems require.

If the Elio had power steering, it would have gone to 11. Yep, most cars have electronic power steering now.

Without attempting to enumerate them, there will probably be 50+ sensors total connected to the computers above if you count human input controls.

All that said, it's not the end of the world. There will always be specialists out there who know how to keep these cars running. Case-in-point: 1986 Buick Riviera. You may recall it had a funky first-generation touchscreen on a CRT display. It was pretty marginal, but totally unique and way ahead of it's time. It only lasted two model years before being replaced with conventional knobs and buttons. Yet there are still specialists today who can service and repair this 30-year-old totally unique specialized computer system.

As unique at the Elio is, I expect there will be specialists repairing it's computers long after you and I are dust.

 

[Lynn D]

Message communicated in a common sense way. I Like it.

 

[Ekh]

To the overwhelming majority of Americans, cars are disposable appliances they use just to get to where they need to go. They don't know and they don't care how it works, and want to perform as little maintenance as possible. They want a shiny new one every few years. Automakers, including Elio if they are smart, make cars for them, not for you. Automakers' only job, only obligation as publicly-held, for-profit companies is "deliver shareholder value" aka make money. They don't make money off of you.

Solid-state electronics are far more reliable than mechanical devices, but in reality only have to be reliable for the length of the first buyer's ownership or the length of the warranty, whichever is longer. First buyers are the only buyers that matter to car companies for obvious reasons. The average length of new car ownership is 6.5 years. A new car only has to be reliable to some value (4-sigma?) beyond 6.5 years to give 99.9% of the only buyers that matter - first buyers - a car that will be highly reliable.

Second, third, fourth owners and beyond bring little to no money to a car maker and only in the form of parts. Sure, those later buyers might become first buyers down the road so there is little incentive to intentionally build-in planned obsolescence. But the automaker has to strike a balance between reliability and cost. They will choose a cheaper part if they can.

Now that we've established that Elio's focus is on making money by selling appliances:
Elio is going take advantage of the technology to minimize costs and maximize profits, and thus will be as loaded with computers and sensors as any other modern vehicle.
The computers I can think of:
1. ECU/ECM - Engine Control Unit/Module.
2. PCM - Powertrain Control Module for the automanual transmission. Likely NOT integrated with ECU/ECM.
3. Air Bag computer - Always separate from all other computers for reliability/survivability.
4. ABS - Anti-lock Braking System computer.
5. DSC/TCS - Dynamic Stability Control/Traction Control System. Likely this and ABS are one integrated computer.
6. Stereo - All computerized now.
7. Instrument Panel - I think I read this will be a CANbus vehicle, so IP will be a networked computer.
8. Cruise Control - May be integrated with ECU/ECM.
9. IPM - Integrated Power Module - Central control computer for all electricity control and distribution. Headlights, tail lights, brake lights, dome lights, horn, power windows, etc. If it runs on electricity, it goes through this module. I don't know if Elio will go this route. Most cars build in the last 5-10 years do.
10. CANbus receivers - Dozens. The newest cars ditch the IPM and just daisy-chain power wires and network wires to every electric device. At each device, like a power window motor, a computer listens to the CANbus for the command to open or close the window. The power window switch is just a computer that puts the commands on the network bus. This saves tremendous cost since, for example, the driver's door just requires two current-carrying and two wispy network wires instead of a dozen or more current-carrying wires that the old direct-wire or IPM systems require.

If the Elio had power steering, it would have gone to 11. Yep, most cars have electronic power steering now.

Without attempting to enumerate them, there will probably be 50+ sensors total connected to the computers above if you count human input controls.

All that said, it's not the end of the world. There will always be specialists out there who know how to keep these cars running. Case-in-point: 1986 Buick Riviera. You may recall it had a funky first-generation touchscreen on a CRT display. It was pretty marginal, but totally unique and way ahead of it's time. It only lasted two model years before being replaced with conventional knobs and buttons. Yet there are still specialists today who can service and repair this 30-year-old totally unique specialized computer system.

As unique at the Elio is, I expect there will be specialists repairing it's computers long after you and I are dust.

Clear and eloquent ... but what's a CANbus? I can guess, but might get it really wrong.

 

[pistonboy]

Yes, companies run by shareholders are only interested in profit. Many shareholders may not even know where the company is located.

A company that bears the name of the founder and owner may be different in that the head of the company is probably more concerned about pride in product and legacy of his name. This fits Paul Elio and Elio Motors. I believe Paul Elio wants to produce quality because it bears his name. It is his pride and joy. Paul Elio is an engineer, not a money man. I believe he has a far greater orientation towards reliability than profits.

Now for the flip side. Paul Elio only has available to him, products (from suppliers) made for the large profit oriented corporations, and thus may not be the most reliable. There is some difference is quality in components and I suspect he will want the more reliable ones. As best he can do.

What is a conscientious engineer to do, these days!

 

[Gas-Powered Awesome]

Clear and eloquent ... but what's a CANbus? I can guess, but might get it really wrong.

You're making me blush.

This is the CANbus:

Oops, wrong one. Try CAN bus. Basically it's a private (usually) Internet for your car, where every instrument, control, sensor, switch, motor, etc. has a computer that talks to the other computers without a central controller.

 

[Gas-Powered Awesome]

Yes, companies run by shareholders are only interested in profit. Many shareholders may not even know where the company is located.

A company that bears the name of the founder and owner may be different in that the head of the company is probably more concerned about pride in product and legacy of his name. This fits Paul Elio and Elio Motors. I believe Paul Elio wants to produce quality because it bears his name. It is his pride and joy. Paul Elio is an engineer, not a money man. I believe he has a far greater orientation towards reliability than profits.

All public companies are run by their shareholders since the shareholders elect the board and the board appoints the CEO.

Your point about Mr. Elio is well-taken, but he is still beholden to his board and shareholders (some of y'all) to turn a profit. He is also building the Elio to a price. Some of the unusual strategies he's chosen, like direct supplier involvement, appear to be meant to meet that price without compromising the quality. I do not envy his position, he has a very narrow path to walk.

 

[floydv]

It would be very difficult if not impossible for a vehicle in today's world to meet state and federal emissions and safety standards without precision electronic engine and vehicle management controls. The days of carbs and mechanical engine controls are over and OEMs are not going back. Just a fact of life; no point dwelling on it.

 

[pistonboy]

I can fix 50 year old cars and get them running again because they are comparatively simple. How easy will it be 50 years from now to get today's cars running? How easy will it be to find all the electronic components for that car, 50 years from now?

 

[Jeff Miller]

To the overwhelming majority of Americans, cars are disposable appliances ...

I can fix 50 year old cars and get them running again because they are comparatively simple. How easy will it be 50 years from now to get today's cars running? How easy will it be to find all the electronic components for that car, 50 years from now?

It won't matter because as Gas-Powered Awesome said, cars of today are disposable

Two points:

1. I've already run into the issue of note being able to repair a mid-80's motorcycle that I restored mechanically to perfect working condition but it still didn't work well because the brain box was malfunctioning. New brain boxes don't exist and reverse engineering either doesn't work because the original parts aren't made any more, or more to the point, it would take far more sophisticated knowledge than I have. The bike went to scrap
   
   
2. The "disposable" notion is really an unfortunate comment on our society. We really don't build things to be used perpetually and people are so focused on the latest thing that they really don't care. From this we end up buying stuff that is either no fully baked or that is already technologically out of date. It is very sad that Paul can use the Ferrari story about MP3 players as an example of how short sighted our society has become.