48 Volt Hybrids Coming In Just Over A Year!

[Paladin4Elio]

(Not sure if this belongs in Elio Drivetrain (for possible future versions). Plz move if this belongs in General Discussion.)

Sounds like 48V lead-carbon hybrids could be a cheaper and simpler solution than a full NiMH or Li ion hybrid.

http://www.hybridcars.com/48-volts-hybrids-are-focus-of-the-week/

http://www.hybridcars.com/48-volt-cars-available-by-2016/

This is most a fyi posting. Something to keep an eye on.

 

[Gas-Powered Awesome]

10,000 Watts / 48 Volts = 208 Amps. Regeneration at claimed 12,500 Watt / 48 Volts = 260 Amps. Figure minimum 300 Amps wiring for safety margin means 0000 AWG (quadruple-ought American wire gauge) wiring. That's two 1/2-inch thick copper cables going from the motor to the battery in the back of the car. I don't understand how that wiring is cheaper than configuring the lead-carbon batteries into higher-voltage arrangements. High-voltage hybrids have not proven to be a safety hazard either. The lower voltage doesn't make them any safer from short circuits. In fact I think the very large cables and high-current batteries makes dangerous arc flashes that jump the fuses/circuit breakers more likely.

 

[Stephen Workman]

vaporware.

 

[ArthurKent]

Actually, I firmly believe that the Elio would be the first practical electric car. For this reason : the
obstacle to a practical EV is (mainly) storage capacity and of course costs. The Elio will have the lowest
energy requirements of any vehicle on the road, by far. It also has the lowest build costs, by far.
That low build cost allows for fairly expensive batteries without sticker prices going thru the roof.
That low energy requirement means a battery pack can be far smaller than, say, the 85kWhr pack in the
Tesla Model S, which costs somewhere around $35-40,000 for roughly 250 miles of driving range.
Total EV weight should be close to the gas powered version's weight.
But the Elio's energy requirements around town (dominated by weight) are probably about the
same as 1/4th that of the Tesla, since the Elio weighs roughly 1/4th as much. Roughly $10,000
for a battery pack that can achieve 250 miles in an Elio. But Musk claims his gigafactory can reduce battery
costs by 1/3rd. Which results in a sub $7,000 battery pack. Sans the battery, I doubt that an electric Elio would cost
more than the current gas powered version (probably significantly less), which yields a sub $14,000 Elio electric,and
no automatic (or manual) transmission needed. I need not point out the desirability of a sub $14,000 electric
car with a 250 mile around town driving range whose fuel costs will be likely average 1 to 2 cents per mile.
It will, in a similar fashion, follow the development of the electric golf cart , which was the first vehicle where an electric version replaced an existing gas powered version.

 

[Gas-Powered Awesome]

Where are you going to put that battery pack? It will be larger than the space made available by removing the engine and fuel tank. And most of the engine bay would still be needed for the rare-earth electric motor, high-power control electronics, and cooling system. Poke around for the video showing a teardown of the very advanced Volt battery which only goes 40 miles. Look how big it is. Now, how big is the Tesla pack? Then think about the "unattainable triumvirate" which in the case of batteries is cost, energy density, size/weight: Pick two.

The reason the Elio will succeed is because it is not an electric and it's cheaper than used cars.

 

[Mike W]

Hmm, how about several thousand LI AA batteries set up in series just between the outer skin and the cabin wall? That's a lot of batteries to hook up to and we could have several little charge ports located around the car to plug in to charge. Now, let me get my tongue out of my cheek, there we go! I think we may need to look at the Elio, for the time being, as the second iteration of the Model T. Henry F knew the importance of making his car for the common man. The more he sold, the more cars he made. The more cars he made, the more mobile the public became. The more mobil the public became, the better off financially America became. Maybe too lofty a goal for Model T II but one just never knows about these things. History (made or in the making) is a funny animal.

 

[AriLea]

Where are you going to put that battery pack?

This is a subject for Elio 2, and therefore exceptional conjecture.
But to add to the discussion, A hybrid doesn't need much of a pack. My guess, looking at my PriusC pack, a Elio sized one would fit under the driver's seat. But you guys were talking full EV.

If Elio2 is redesigned for full EV, that would likely balance the decision back to a full body. i.e more like this LongRanger (image below), which has bue-que space for batteries, and Even three motors for All-Wheel-Drive.

Also note, EV super bikers are developing fast. That size of drive would work perfectly in an Elio2.
As for non-super bikes, two of those motor systems would work very nicely for a Left-Right install, no-differential needed. Those dual motor drive arrangements are known to work nicely. As soon as any low-cost batteries actually exist, maybe exceptional conjecture can switch to practical implementation. Compared to ICE drive, it's much easier to scale up electric motor production to high volume, by my best guess. Current batteries, not as much.

But lets address the future tech of EV's, namely voltage. It will always be true that high voltage systems (over 100, even over 200) are much more efficient. If EVs become mainstream, high voltage will eventually be the defacto standard. One case claimed that a 100hp high-rpm-high-voltage motor was the same size-weight as a 10hp motor (then add back a little for the cooling system). This motor turned 10times the rpm of course. High tech indeed.

 

[Gas-Powered Awesome]

All the production HEV's, EV's and PHEVs are already high voltage, going all the way back to the EV1. The Chevy Volt's pack is 380 Volts, the Tesla and Leaf are 400 Volt packs. So, I think they already are the "de facto" standard.

 

[AriLea]

My favorite si-fi EV (for the street) is to take power from a power-rail(or inductor), and have a very small battery pack to take you from one rail to the next. That vehicle would weigh less than half of an Elio. Major-major politics to get a power rail into city streets.

My all-time favorite si-fi vehicle for commuting? An electric box-rail gondola car, no batteries at all. Let's NOT talk about THAT infrastructure!

 

[Mike W]

This is a subject for Elio 2, and therefore exceptional conjecture.
But to add to the discussion, A hybrid doesn't need much of a pack. My guess, looking at my PriusC pack, a Elio sized one would fit under the driver's seat. But you guys were talking full EV.

If Elio2 is redesigned for full EV, that would likely balance the decision back to a full body. i.e more like this LongRanger (image below), which has bue-que space for batteries, and Even three motors for All-Wheel-Drive.

Also note, EV super bikers are developing fast. That size of drive would work perfectly in an Elio2.
As for non-super bikes, two of those motor systems would work very nicely for a Left-Right install, no-differential needed. Those dual motor drive arrangements are known to work nicely. As soon as any low-cost batteries actually exist, maybe exceptional conjecture can switch to practical implementation. Compared to ICE drive, it's much easier to scale up electric motor production to high volume, by my best guess. Current batteries, not as much.

But lets address the future tech of EV's, namely voltage. It will always be true that high voltage systems (over 100, even over 200) are much more efficient. If EVs become mainstream, high voltage will eventually be the defacto standard. One case claimed that a 100hp high-rpm-high-voltage motor was the same size-weight as a 10hp motor (then add back a little for the cooling system). This motor turned 10times the rpm of course. High tech indeed.

View attachment 2751

I don't think battery technology will ever be a very good technology. I don't mean that they won't advance battery tech to be able to go farther and be more powerful, I mean environmentally it won't be. Think about the Prius for example. It does get really good mileage and, due to its electric motor, it doesn't put pollution into the air. Think about the steps it takes to get to that point though. From what I understand about the battery, there is a pretty nasty soup of toxins put in them. Then there is simply all the power put out, fossil fuel burned into bringing all it's parts from all over the world together at the factory (where ever they assemble them) and then to top it off, the fuel burned to get the cars to the US and then distributed across the country. Let's not stop there! What to do with the batteries when they need to be replaced? There's a huge "carbon footprint" and "toxin tally" (that last one is my creation) connected with each Prius. Not very eco friendly or economical when you get right down to it. Battery driven cars will still have all those batteries. The Elio, while not perfect, cuts out a lot of the problem and shows that sometimes older technology brought up to date may actually be a more solid, responsible way to go. Or so it seems to me.

This is a subject for Elio 2, and therefore exceptional conjecture.
But to add to the discussion, A hybrid doesn't need much of a pack. My guess, looking at my PriusC pack, a Elio sized one would fit under the driver's seat. But you guys were talking full EV.

If Elio2 is redesigned for full EV, that would likely balance the decision back to a full body. i.e more like this LongRanger (image below), which has bue-que space for batteries, and Even three motors for All-Wheel-Drive.

Also note, EV super bikers are developing fast. That size of drive would work perfectly in an Elio2.
As for non-super bikes, two of those motor systems would work very nicely for a Left-Right install, no-differential needed. Those dual motor drive arrangements are known to work nicely. As soon as any low-cost batteries actually exist, maybe exceptional conjecture can switch to practical implementation. Compared to ICE drive, it's much easier to scale up electric motor production to high volume, by my best guess. Current batteries, not as much.

But lets address the future tech of EV's, namely voltage. It will always be true that high voltage systems (over 100, even over 200) are much more efficient. If EVs become mainstream, high voltage will eventually be the defacto standard. One case claimed that a 100hp high-rpm-high-voltage motor was the same size-weight as a 10hp motor (then add back a little for the cooling system). This motor turned 10times the rpm of course. High tech indeed.

View attachment 2751

I'm not a big fan of the batteries in new generation hybrids or electric cars. Granted they help them go without polluting the air but all those batteries are going to need to be taken care of. From what I've read, the constituent components of them makes the "good old" batteries we have in our cars look down right healthy in comparison. I know research continues in battery development, I hope it also continues in making them safer in contents and for the end game of disposal. Making sure air pollutants are reduced only to poison the ground in even more intense ways seem penny wise, pound foolish to me.