Is This Ruling Going To Effect Elio Since They Are Following The Telsa Sales Model.

[Norahsbed]

Motorcycles, autocycles, and automobiles, just wait they'll come up with a description for each and the Elio won't fit any of them!

 

[Sethodine]

OK... Simple and non-disruptive solution: Require consumers to sign a waiver of acknowledgement before purchase.
Including all new and/or used 3-wheeler purchases.

I considered this, but cars trade hands a lot. Signing paperwork isn't required for the resale of any other item except for firearms. I don't think Joe Anon would want to go through the hassle of a waiver (or even remember it was required). A simpler solution would be to require a special Autocycle endorsement on your driver's license. This would basically be a waiver, but the idea of needing an endorsement is already pretty common and well understood re: motorcycles.

 

[Elio Amazed]

Signing paperwork isn't required for the resale of any other item except for firearms.

Wha..? Things must certainly be different in WA.
Here, you have to sign the title in at least two different places in front of a notary.
The notary is the person who must send the title and accompanying paperwork in to the DOT.
Joe Anon cannot sell his vehicle (new or used) here without a notary.

The notary is also required to look up the KBB.
If KBB is considerably greater than the purchase price...
The buyer is required to provide a signed explanation form.

People "sign" acknowledgement waivers (terms of use) when they download and install software.
They sign acknowledgement waivers everyday when joining clubs and organizations.
It's also common for used-car dealers nationwide to have buyers sign "as-is" disclaimers.

The easy part of this is that every notary would be aware of, and would stock, the required forms.
As far as the resale of firearms... Paper work has only been required in federally licensed gun dealer sales.
That is supposed to change according to the executive action announced yesterday by the President.

However, whether or not paperwork and a background check is required for any particular gun sale...
Will still depend on whether the government determines the seller to be a bonafide gun dealer (licensed or not).

A large flaw in your proposal is that you can purchase a motorcycle without having a MC endorsement.
Besides, we're trying to get away from requiring license endorsements to drive Elios.

 

[Sethodine]

Wha..? Things must certainly be different in WA.
Here, you have to sign the title in at least two different places in front of a notary.
The notary is the person who must send the title and accompanying paperwork in to the DOT.
Joe Anon cannot sell his vehicle (new or used) here without a notary.

The notary is also required to look up the KBB.
If KBB is considerably greater than the purchase price...
The buyer is required to provide a signed explanation form.

People "sign" acknowledgement waivers (terms of use) when they download and install software.
They sign acknowledgement waivers everyday when joining clubs and organizations.
It's also common for used-car dealers nationwide to have buyers sign "as-is" disclaimers.

The easy part of this is that every notary would be aware of, and would stock, the required forms.
As far as the resale of firearms... Paper work has only been required in federally licensed gun dealer sales.
That is supposed to change according to the executive action announced yesterday by the President.

However, whether or not paperwork and a background check is required for any particular gun sale...
Will still depend on whether the government determines the seller to be a bonafide gun dealer (licensed or not).

A large flaw in your proposal is that you can purchase a motorcycle without having a MC endorsement.
Besides, we're trying to get away from requiring license endorsements to drive Elios.

Ah. Yeah, it's different here in Washington state. No need for a notary in any step of the process, The seller just signs and dates the title over to the buyer, and both are required to report the sale to the state within a set time frame (2 or 3 weeks, I think). The only rule regarding price is that a vehicle cannot be "gifted" for free twice in a row: if you received a car as a gift but you want to pass it along to somebody else, you must report it as a sale with a price so that the state can get their sales tax. I've heard that some people purposefully under-report the price when selling to a friend (to lower their tax liability) but I'm kind of a stickler for the law, so I'd rather just sell the car for a lower price to a friend.

We also have both motorcycle AND trike endorsements already, although autocycles are exempt from these (the letter of the law doesn't call them by that name, but it clearly describes what we'd call an autocycle). I'd like to keep Elio out of that process, but if that is what it takes to make Elio a reality than I'll do it.

I suppose the lesson here is that State laws differ so widely, that it would make more sense for the Feds to settle on redefining the vehicle classification rather than trying to fit more paperwork into the plethora of state licensing laws. (But that would assume that federal agencies do things that make sense.)

As a side note: Universal background checks for ALL gun sales/transfers, regardless of who the seller is, was made state law in WA just last year. Thankfully, having a Concealed Pistol License counts as the required background check, so all the law has done was to push more gun owners to get their CPL

 

[John Painter]

What are your thoughts on the proposed NHTSA rule change to exclude certain three wheel vehicles form Title 49 motorcycle definition. Is it good for EM?

http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=201510&RIN=2127-AL15


RIN Data
DOT/NHTSA RIN: 2127-AL15 Publication ID: Fall 2015
Title: Amend Definition of 3-Wheeled Vehicles
Abstract:
This rulemaking would change the regulatory definition of motorcycle to exclude three-wheeled vehicles that are configured like passenger cars. Under the existing regulatory definition of motorcycle in part 571.3, three-wheeled motor vehicles are classified as motorcycles. This is appropriate for motorcycles with sidecars, trikes, and other three-wheeled vehicles that are based on a motorcycle-like configuration. However, other three-wheeled vehicles have passenger-car characteristics such as fully enclosed cabins, hinged doors with roll-up windows, steering wheels, and side-by-side seating. Because these car-like vehicles ride on three wheels instead of four, they are not required to meet federal safety standards for passenger cars (although they are subject to motorcycle safety standards.) Various car-like three-wheeled vehicle models have been imported into the U.S. and have been available for sale to the public. NHTSA believes consumers who purchase these vehicles are likely to assume that these vehicles have the same safety features and crash protection as passenger cars certified to Federal safety standards.


Agency: Department of Transportation(DOT) Priority: Substantive, Nonsignificant
RIN Status: Previously published in the Unified Agenda Agenda Stage of Rulemaking: Proposed Rule Stage
Major: No Unfunded Mandates: No
CFR Citation: 202 366-4931
Email: mike.pyne@dot.gov

This is the reply I got from DOT;


Hello,

Thanks for contacting the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration concerning proposed rulemaking about the classification of certain three-wheeled vehicles under our safety regulations.

In accordance with standard federal rulemaking procedures, we are not able to discuss details of proposed rules until we have published a public notice in the Federal Register. As such, the information you found posted on the US DOT website is all that is available publicly at the present time.

I hope this is helpful.


Michael Pyne
U.S. Department of Transportation/NHTSA
1200 New Jersey Ave SE, Rm W43-457
Washington DC 20590
(202) 366-4171
mike.pyne@dot.gov


personally I think it bodes well for Elio Motors as there's ample opportunity though public comment (and lobby, and Congressional comment) for EM to guide the language where it would benefit them most.

 

[Rob Croson]

Thanks for checking on that, John. I almost sent the guy an email myself.

 

[John Painter]

Thanks for checking on that, John. I almost sent the guy an email myself.

Why don't you? I sort of think of Elio Motors like politics, no press is bad press.

 

[Coss]

How about this



Elio Motors’ Focus on Safety
by The Elio Team

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Happy Friday Elio friends and family! Have you recovered from all the holiday cheer and family and friends? We hope your holiday was everything that you had hoped for and more.

January is always a great point for a “fresh start” on many items that we do or know we should be doing more of, or maybe less? We try diets, exercise, renewed commitment to hobbies and activities and many other things to help us get better in all ways. Elio Motors goes through this process too, informally, to see what we need to do to continuously communicate our vision and mission better as well as help our fans both new and long-time learn more about us as we drive toward production.

One area that we want to discuss this week is safety. There are some misleading items that have surfaced recently that mostly stem from incorrect interpretation of old news. We have been aware of RIN: 2127-AL15 proposed rule since February of 2013 when it was first published. Our Governmental Affairs team is on it and continues to watch these and other rules/laws carefully. The GA team feels this particular rule does not impact Elio because of the side by side seating and the fact that the rule has been inactive since 2014. We continue to work closely with individual states and at the federal level to further define what is in the best interest of the consumer and is appropriate for the consumer. We actively support Federal Legislation called “The Autocycle Safety Act” which creates a new category called autocycles which includes appropriate safety equipment.

[Broken External Image]

The real message is that Elio Motors is committed to the safety of our vehicle. Safety is one of our four main tenets (along with the up to 84 mpg highway and targeted base selling price of $6,800 and made in the USA) so it is a key driver in each or our decisions.

Regardless of how the vehicle is classified, our goal is to build a safe vehicle that we would be comfortable driving and having any of our family members drive.

The Elio Safety Management System is at the core of our safety commitment. The Elio Safety Management System consists of: Three air bags (steering wheel and two side curtain), reinforced steel roll cage, anti-lock brakes, traction control and seat belts (including the LATCH system in the back seat). We have run computer simulations using the same programs that most auto manufacturers use and the Elio returns fantastic results. We will continue testing and refining the safety profile with the upcoming E-series vehicles. We have a large slate of tests to perform, live tests, to prove out the results of the simulations. I know what you are thinking, you are building vehicles just to crash them??? Yes, it is hard for us too, but in order to make sure the production Elio is safe we have to do this now, no matter how painful it will be to watch.

You can see that safety is an important part of Elio Motors and will continue to be as we move toward production and beyond.

[Broken External Image]

Elio Preview Tour -
January 16-24, Detroit, Michigan; North American International Auto Show, show hours, P5 show

Thanks for your support.


Seems like word spreads pretty fast ........

 

[floydv]

Like I said, there's no there there. Much ado about nothing. As Elio points out, the proposed rulemaking has been dormant since 2014, and they have been tracking it since 2013. And as I pointed out earlier, NHTSA has been considering this change for four decades without ever finalizing it (the motorcycle definition has been in place without change since 1966).

 

[Rob Croson]

Great news!