The Elio Engine

eliothegreat · Apr 17, 2015

WilliamH said:
The only Duratecs listed are 1.25 and 1.6 Liter (Page 35 of UK Fiesta manual)
You may be correct on the Kappa II engine.

Why, other than your own ego, do you want imported engines in the Elio?

Does it hurt to wake up with that chip on your shoulder?

Hi mr reading comprehension. It's the first engine listed. "Oh, my it doesn't say Duratec.

" Try looking at page 36, where it is listed twice as Duratec. Do you really have to be spoon fed everything?

It's not my ego that has wasted millions on developing an engine rather than going into production with an existing engine. Lay the hubris and ego trips at Paul Elio's door, not mine. The two things that made the Elio project even possible in the beginning were 1) off-the-shelf parts and 2) lack of federal regulation (or the grey area between motorcycle and automobile regulation). By trying to create an engine to boost his ego, Paul is destroying door #1. By pushing Vitter to propose insane regulatory burdens, he is destroying door #2.

Since reading comprehension seems to be a challenge, I'll try again. I never said that I want Elio to use imported engines. I am saying that if they had any business sense or a desire to make it into production, they would use an existing engine to start production. Manufacturing there own engine at the beginning simple costs too much time and money and destroys their chances for success. I don't care where the engine comes from, as long as it is proven and reliable. It just so happens, that at this point in time, three of the best candidates are the engines I listed.

You may want the Elio to be eugenically pure, but I would rather just see a quality, inexpensive tadpole trike on the market. Why would you rather see the company fail, or at least delay production (already a minimum of two years) because of poor business sense, rather than go into production with a proven powerplant? Why does the idea of "an imported engine" bother you (and would cause John Painter to flip out), but you are both perfectly calm an placid about using an Aisin transmission? Are you total hypocrites, or is your google-fu still to weak to realize that Aisin is a Japanese company? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisin_Seiki_Co.
Comau? Italian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comau
IAV? German http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAV

Heck, by supporting Elio, you are doing business with the remnants of the Axis Powers from World War II. You basically question my patriotism by suggesting a reasonable business approach. It is not unreasonable nor unpatriotic for Elio to do business with IAV, Comau, and Aisin, and it would not be unreasonable or unpatriotic for them to buy engines from Ford, Hyundai, or Fiat Chrysler.

Again, get a grip on reality.

BTW, thanks for asking about my shoulder. The pain comes from broken bones that haven't healed completely. It only hurts on waking if I sleep face down. The bone chip is in my elbow, and it doesn't hurt unless I over-strain the arm. I didn't realize you cared.

eliothegreat · Apr 17, 2015

JEBar said:
just curious, since you clearly believe you know the best way to bring a product like the Elio to market, have you considered starting your own company from scratch and making it happen

Oooh. Snappy come-back from mr "I only made a $100 reservation, because I really don't think that Elio will be able to produce a reliable product before the end of the first year of production", You are happy to toss out insults and accusations, but you don't really have any confidence in Elio. I have started several companies. Three successful. Two utter failures. Working on # 6 now.

I considered starting my own trike company, but realized that I didn't/don't have the skills, ambition, energy or resources necessary to pull it off. Just because I know my own limitations doesn't mean that I cannot recognize obvious business errors, mistakes in judgment, and deceptive advertising when I see it. One of the reasons that I was so supportive of this project at the beginning, was because Paul seemed to be actually doing what I had just dreamed about, ie fwd, enclosed tadpole trike, decent hp, light weight, sporty handling, off-the-shelf parts. I was thinking more along the lines of a glorified kit car. It could be fully manufactured because of the regulatory gap. He even added lots of good ideas that had never crossed my mind: c/card financing, outsourced parts and service, etc. But then he added weight, dropped horsepower, killed sporty, stopped testing, and went overboard with deceptive advertising to collect money. Until I lost faith in Paul's business judgment and honesty, I greatly admired his vision and tenacity.

I know, it is a waste of time to give a serious answer to a smart-alec question, but there you have it in a nutshell.

JEBar · Apr 18, 2015

eliothegreat said:
Oooh. Snappy come-back from mr "I only made a $100 reservation, because I really don't think that Elio will be able to produce a reliable product before the end of the first year of production", You are happy to toss out insults and accusations, but you don't really have any confidence in Elio. I have started several companies. Three successful. Two utter failures. Working on # 6 now.

I know, it is a waste of time to give a serious answer to a smart-alec question, but there you have it in a nutshell.

interesting quote but it would take some serious twisthing be contribute to me .... I did make a $100 reservation because at that time I didn't (and still don't) want an Elio until mid 2016 .... with the production delay after we made the reservation, that has worked well for us .... not that its any of your business but by then we should be able to pay cash and not have to finance it .... we don't plan to buy but one and having a high registration number should give us time to figure out what options prove to be well received .... in addition, it makes sense to me that by the time 45 - 50,000 have rolled off the line they should have any production bugs worked out .... as to insults, if asking "since you clearly believe you know the best way to bring a product like the Elio to market, have you considered starting your own company from scratch and making it happen" is an insult, you appear to be easily insulted .... none the less, thanks for taking the time to answer the question .... I believe you when you say, "I considered starting my own trike company, but realized that I didn't/don't have the skills, ambition, energy or resources necessary to pull it off." .... you have every right to believe what you choose to be believe about Paul and EM .... as to my level of confidence in EM, I've said all along that I don't have any way of knowing if/when they will be able to start production .... I do believe that they are making a strong effort to do so .... when I have questions, I try to ask people who are in a position to provide accurate answers .... I haven't found that making wild guesses serves any constructive purposes

eliothegreat · Apr 18, 2015

No, that wasn't an insult. An ignorant comment, but not any insult. I was referring to the litany of insults and accusations that you have hurled at me ever since I joined the forum.

You are correct, it is none of my business what you do with your money, nor the status of your finances. There is no twisting, you repeated in this post that you don't want an early model because you don't believe they will get it right from the beginning. ie, if they got it right, they wouldn't have to be working out production bugs. I happen to agree that, if Elio does make it to production, there will be a very high probability of problems with the early units. Another reason to use a proven engine.

I appreciate your attempt to provoke me by believing Clint Eastwood's "A man's gotta know his limitations" statement about myself. However, missing all the rest of the post is just another sign of scotoma.

Unfortunately for your Elio questions, the people who are in a position to provide accurate answers lie spin their answers to raise more money. Like Charlie Brown, you keep racing to kick Elio Lucy's football.

eliothegreat · Apr 18, 2015

eliothegreat said:
No, that wasn't an insult. An ignorant comment, but not any insult. I was referring to the litany of insults and accusations that you have hurled at me ever since I joined the forum.

You are correct, it is none of my business what you do with your money, nor the status of your finances. There is no twisting, you repeated in this post that you don't want an early model because you don't believe they will get it right from the beginning. ie, if they got it right, they wouldn't have to be working out production bugs. And you can relax, there is no need to worry about getting an Elio by mid-2016. I happen to agree that, if Elio does make it to production, there will be a very high probability of problems with the early units. Another reason to use a proven engine.

I appreciate your attempt to provoke me by believing Clint Eastwood's "A man's gotta know his limitations" statement about myself. However, missing all the rest of the post is just another sign of scotoma.

Unfortunately for your Elio questions, the people who are in a position to provide accurate answers lie spin their answers to raise more money. Like Charlie Brown, you keep racing to kick Elio Lucy's football.

jetpack54 · Apr 18, 2015

eliothegreat said:
Hi mr reading comprehension. It's the first engine listed. "Oh, my it doesn't say Duratec. " Try looking at page 36, where it is listed twice as Duratec. Do you really have to be spoon fed everything?

It's not my ego that has wasted millions on developing an engine rather than going into production with an existing engine. Lay the hubris and ego trips at Paul Elio's door, not mine. The two things that made the Elio project even possible in the beginning were 1) off-the-shelf parts and 2) lack of federal regulation (or the grey area between motorcycle and automobile regulation). By trying to create an engine to boost his ego, Paul is destroying door #1. By pushing Vitter to propose insane regulatory burdens, he is destroying door #2.

Since reading comprehension seems to be a challenge, I'll try again. I never said that I want Elio to use imported engines. I am saying that if they had any business sense or a desire to make it into production, they would use an existing engine to start production. Manufacturing there own engine at the beginning simple costs too much time and money and destroys their chances for success. I don't care where the engine comes from, as long as it is proven and reliable. It just so happens, that at this point in time, three of the best candidates are the engines I listed.

You may want the Elio to be eugenically pure, but I would rather just see a quality, inexpensive tadpole trike on the market. Why would you rather see the company fail, or at least delay production (already a minimum of two years) because of poor business sense, rather than go into production with a proven powerplant? Why does the idea of "an imported engine" bother you (and would cause John Painter to flip out), but you are both perfectly calm an placid about using an Aisin transmission? Are you total hypocrites, or is your google-fu still to weak to realize that Aisin is a Japanese company? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisin_Seiki_Co.
Comau? Italian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comau
IAV? German http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAV

Heck, by supporting Elio, you are doing business with the remnants of the Axis Powers from World War II. You basically question my patriotism by suggesting a reasonable business approach. It is not unreasonable nor unpatriotic for Elio to do business with IAV, Comau, and Aisin, and it would not be unreasonable or unpatriotic for them to buy engines from Ford, Hyundai, or Fiat Chrysler.

Again, get a grip on reality.

BTW, thanks for asking about my shoulder. The pain comes from broken bones that haven't healed completely. It only hurts on waking if I sleep face down. The bone chip is in my elbow, and it doesn't hurt unless I over-strain the arm. I didn't realize you cared.

jetpack54 · Apr 18, 2015

eliothegreat said:
Hi mr reading comprehension. It's the first engine listed. "Oh, my it doesn't say Duratec. " Try looking at page 36, where it is listed twice as Duratec. Do you really have to be spoon fed everything?

It's not my ego that has wasted millions on developing an engine rather than going into production with an existing engine. Lay the hubris and ego trips at Paul Elio's door, not mine. The two things that made the Elio project even possible in the beginning were 1) off-the-shelf parts and 2) lack of federal regulation (or the grey area between motorcycle and automobile regulation). By trying to create an engine to boost his ego, Paul is destroying door #1. By pushing Vitter to propose insane regulatory burdens, he is destroying door #2.

Since reading comprehension seems to be a challenge, I'll try again. I never said that I want Elio to use imported engines. I am saying that if they had any business sense or a desire to make it into production, they would use an existing engine to start production. Manufacturing there own engine at the beginning simple costs too much time and money and destroys their chances for success. I don't care where the engine comes from, as long as it is proven and reliable. It just so happens, that at this point in time, three of the best candidates are the engines I listed.

You may want the Elio to be eugenically pure, but I would rather just see a quality, inexpensive tadpole trike on the market. Why would you rather see the company fail, or at least delay production (already a minimum of two years) because of poor business sense, rather than go into production with a proven powerplant? Why does the idea of "an imported engine" bother you (and would cause John Painter to flip out), but you are both perfectly calm an placid about using an Aisin transmission? Are you total hypocrites, or is your google-fu still to weak to realize that Aisin is a Japanese company? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisin_Seiki_Co.
Comau? Italian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comau
IAV? German http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAV

Heck, by supporting Elio, you are doing business with the remnants of the Axis Powers from World War II. You basically question my patriotism by suggesting a reasonable business approach. It is not unreasonable nor unpatriotic for Elio to do business with IAV, Comau, and Aisin, and it would not be unreasonable or unpatriotic for them to buy engines from Ford, Hyundai, or Fiat Chrysler.

Again, get a grip on reality.

BTW, thanks for asking about my shoulder. The pain comes from broken bones that haven't healed completely. It only hurts on waking if I sleep face down. The bone chip is in my elbow, and it doesn't hurt unless I over-strain the arm. I didn't realize you cared.

Well said Eliothegreat! One just need to be open minded and accept what's too obvious to ignore!

jetpack54 · Apr 18, 2015

One just need to accept that EM and PE and his associates are not perfect, they are after all, humans like the rest of us! Defending their every actions/decisions does not make us any closer to our ELIO but exposing what they might have missed, misjudged or miscalculated are just subject for a healthy arguments so lets not attack the person (I'm guilty of it) posting, instead, attack the argument. In defense of Eliothegreat, he tried to remain subjective and very seldom punched back unless personally attacked.

WilliamH · Apr 18, 2015

eliothegreat said:
Hi mr reading comprehension. It's the first engine listed. "Oh, my it doesn't say Duratec. " Try looking at page 36, where it is listed twice as Duratec. Do you really have to be spoon fed everything?

It's not my ego that has wasted millions on developing an engine rather than going into production with an existing engine. Lay the hubris and ego trips at Paul Elio's door, not mine. The two things that made the Elio project even possible in the beginning were 1) off-the-shelf parts and 2) lack of federal regulation (or the grey area between motorcycle and automobile regulation). By trying to create an engine to boost his ego, Paul is destroying door #1. By pushing Vitter to propose insane regulatory burdens, he is destroying door #2.

Since reading comprehension seems to be a challenge, I'll try again. I never said that I want Elio to use imported engines. I am saying that if they had any business sense or a desire to make it into production, they would use an existing engine to start production. Manufacturing there own engine at the beginning simple costs too much time and money and destroys their chances for success. I don't care where the engine comes from, as long as it is proven and reliable. It just so happens, that at this point in time, three of the best candidates are the engines I listed.

You may want the Elio to be eugenically pure, but I would rather just see a quality, inexpensive tadpole trike on the market. Why would you rather see the company fail, or at least delay production (already a minimum of two years) because of poor business sense, rather than go into production with a proven powerplant? Why does the idea of "an imported engine" bother you (and would cause John Painter to flip out), but you are both perfectly calm an placid about using an Aisin transmission? Are you total hypocrites, or is your google-fu still to weak to realize that Aisin is a Japanese company? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisin_Seiki_Co.
Comau? Italian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comau
IAV? German http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAV

Heck, by supporting Elio, you are doing business with the remnants of the Axis Powers from World War II. You basically question my patriotism by suggesting a reasonable business approach. It is not unreasonable nor unpatriotic for Elio to do business with IAV, Comau, and Aisin, and it would not be unreasonable or unpatriotic for them to buy engines from Ford, Hyundai, or Fiat Chrysler.

Again, get a grip on reality.

BTW, thanks for asking about my shoulder. The pain comes from broken bones that haven't healed completely. It only hurts on waking if I sleep face down. The bone chip is in my elbow, and it doesn't hurt unless I over-strain the arm. I didn't realize you cared.

Two lines on one page of a 46 page manual and only indirect references.
And not described as "Duratec" anyplace else that I could find.

eliothegreat said:
Oooh. Snappy come-back from mr "I only made a $100 reservation, because I really don't think that Elio will be able to produce a reliable product before the end of the first year of production", You are happy to toss out insults and accusations, but you don't really have any confidence in Elio. I have started several companies. Three successful. Two utter failures. Working on # 6 now.

I considered starting my own trike company, but realized that I didn't/don't have the skills, ambition, energy or resources necessary to pull it off. Just because I know my own limitations doesn't mean that I cannot recognize obvious business errors, mistakes in judgment, and deceptive advertising when I see it. One of the reasons that I was so supportive of this project at the beginning, was because Paul seemed to be actually doing what I had just dreamed about, ie fwd, enclosed tadpole trike, decent hp, light weight, sporty handling, off-the-shelf parts. I was thinking more along the lines of a glorified kit car. It could be fully manufactured because of the regulatory gap. He even added lots of good ideas that had never crossed my mind: c/card financing, outsourced parts and service, etc. But then he added weight, dropped horsepower, killed sporty, stopped testing, and went overboard with deceptive advertising to collect money. Until I lost faith in Paul's business judgment and honesty, I greatly admired his vision and tenacity.

I know, it is a waste of time to give a serious answer to a smart-alec question, but there you have it in a nutshell.

......." I have started several companies. Three successful.".........
And are they still profitable going concerns?
Facilitated, no doubt, by your people skills.

JEBar · Apr 18, 2015

eliothegreat said:
No, that wasn't an insult. An ignorant comment, but not any insult. I was referring to the litany of insults and accusations that you have hurled at me ever since I joined the forum.

litany of insults .... so, pointing out that on some things we clearly disagree is an insult .... interesting, very interesting

eliothegreat said:
You are correct, it is none of my business what you do with your money, nor the status of your finances. There is no twisting, you repeated in this post that you don't want an early model because you don't believe they will get it right from the beginning. ie, if they got it right, they wouldn't have to be working out production bugs. I happen to agree that, if Elio does make it to production, there will be a very high probability of problems with the early units. Another reason to use a proven engine.

the belief that there is a pretty good chance that there will have to be some bugs worked out during the early stages of production is universal, not just with EM .... EM recognizes this and has scheduled a break in early production to take care of in issues which may arise .... note I didn't say will, I said may .... to me that reflects real world wisdom and planning

eliothegreat said:
I appreciate your attempt to provoke me by believing Clint Eastwood's "A man's gotta know his limitations" statement about myself. However, missing all the rest of the post is just another sign of scotoma.

I didn't miss the rest of the post, I acknowledged the core of your answer to my question and thanked you for taking the time to provide an answer .... I quoted you, not Clint Eastwood but as since you brought it up, it is a point that has merit

eliothegreat said:
Unfortunately for your Elio questions, the people who are in a position to provide accurate answers lie spin their answers to raise more money. Like Charlie Brown, you keep racing to kick Elio Lucy's football.

in the first sentence you reference people in a position to provide accurate answers .... in post 1611 above I acknowledged that "you have every right to believe what you choose to be believe about Paul and EM" .... your belief in this area is one I don't share and I believe I have a right disagree .... to redirect to the point you were making in claiming that Paul/EM didn't make an effort to find an acceptable in production engine .... it is on record in multiple reports that Paul says he/they did .... I choose to believe him on this and I'd appreciate it if you would provide authoritative documentation to support your contention that he/they didn't

The Elio Engine

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